Slam the door shut

valdemar

Senior Member
Español mexicano
Hi everyone! I understand the meaning of this expresion "Slam the door shut"= cerrar de golpe la puerta. So, here my questions are more on the grammatical structure that I cannot understand due to its counterpart in Spanish:

- is this kind of verb + name + -what-?.
-Is this structure the same as to saying for example "leave the door open"= dejar la puerta abierta? Here the point is that in Spanish we don't say "slam the door shut = azotar la puerta cerrada". Another example: "fling the door open".

I'd like to hear your opinions about this and its translation into Spanish.

Thanks.

Note: I wrote the phrase as the title because I don't know the name of the grammatical structure.
 
  • loudspeaker

    Senior Member
    British English
    Hello Valde,
    In your sentence 'shut' is a subject-oriented depictive secondary predication.
    In 'He slammed the door shut' (Cerró la puerta de un portazo/de golpe), 'shut' represents a supplementive clause (verbless adjectival clause) in final position.

    Edit:
    Secondary Predication and Non-Verbal Predicates

    [7] Resulting States

    He wriggled loose.
    We squirmed free.

    They shot him dead.
    She painted the cabin red.
    I pounded the metal flat.

    I shouted myself hoarse.
    She ran herself ragged.

    She ate herself sick.
    He drank himself silly.

    http://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~kay/bcg/II-Pred.html
     
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    sound shift

    Senior Member
    English - England
    This is a Germanic structure that has no equivalent in the Romance languages, as far as I am aware. The "shut" and the "open" are the results of the action in your examples. That's not really a grammatical explanation. Loudspeaker's reply definitely is, though.
     

    ivb8921

    Senior Member
    Spain Spanish
    This structure has really baffled me for years. I don´t think it will ever come out naturally from me when talking English unless one learns the most common of them by heart. So, thank you very much Loudspeaker and Sound Shift for the info. It came in really handy.
     

    Chasint

    Senior Member
    English - England
    This structure has really baffled me for years. I don´t think it will ever come out naturally from me when talking English unless one learns the most common of them by heart. So, thank you very much Loudspeaker and Sound Shift for the info. It came in really handy.
    I see it as similar to "He painted the door green."

    I'm not sure if that helps. Does it?
     

    loudspeaker

    Senior Member
    British English
    And as similar to...
    He drove home drunk = Volvió (conduciendo) a casa bebido/borracho.
    The soldiers reached the camp exhausted= Los soldados llegaron al campamento exhaustos.
    The boy delivered the package wet = El chico entregó el paquete mojado.
    He punched him silly= Le dio un puñetazo que lo dejó tonto.

    Easy, isn't it? :)
     
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    valdemar

    Senior Member
    Español mexicano
    Hello Valde,
    In your sentence 'shut' is a subject-oriented depictive secondary predication.
    In 'He slammed the door shut' (Cerró la puerta de un portazo/de golpe), 'shut' represents a supplementive clause (verbless adjectival clause) in final position.

    Edit:
    Secondary Predication and Non-Verbal Predicates
    ...

    Loudspeaker, thanks a lot, and I mean a lot, for that answer. De hecho ni siquiera podía buscar nada en internet sin saber el nombre de la estructura. So, it really helps. Con esto ahora puedo investigar y buscar en libros de gramática. Pero bueno, aprovechando que eres toda una experta, si no es mucha molestia me gustaría saber cómo traduces este tipo de frases en español (esto es para ver cuál es el patrón). Esencialmente veo que hay dos tipos "depictives" and "resultatives". Las estructuras "depictives" son como las que pones en #6, excepto la última, y no hay mucho problema porque hay mucha similitud con la traducción del español. El problema es con las "resultatives" como las que pones en tu lista:

    He wriggled loose.
    We squirmed free.


    They shot him dead.
    She painted the cabin red.
    I pounded the metal flat.
    John hammered the metal flat.
    We drank the teapot empty


    I shouted myself hoarse.
    She ran herself ragged.


    She ate herself sick.
    He drank himself silly.
    John laughed Mary silly

    De nuevo, muchísima gracias.
     

    Archicaballero

    Senior Member
    Colombia/ Spanish
    That one is impossible - "to laugh" is not a transitive verb. You can however use it reflexively "John laughed himself silly." :tick:
    Biffo: Would it be possible to say: John Laughed at Mary Silly ? If so, Valdemar might have left " at " out, don't you think so. I am just curious.
     

    Chasint

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Biffo: Would it be possible to say: John Laughed at Mary Silly ? If so, Valdemar might have left " at " out, don't you think so. I am just curious.
    No. That makes no sense in English. Or are you using "Silly" as Mary's surname? All those capital letters make the whole sentence confusing.

    What are you trying to say? Please give the Spanish version of what you mean.
     

    loudspeaker

    Senior Member
    British English
    Loudspeaker, thanks a lot, and I mean a lot, for that answer. De hecho ni siquiera podía buscar nada en internet sin saber el nombre de la estructura. So, it really helps. Con esto ahora puedo investigar y buscar en libros de gramática. Pero bueno, aprovechando que eres toda una experta, si no es mucha molestia me gustaría saber cómo traduces este tipo de frases en español (esto es para ver cuál es el patrón). Esencialmente veo que hay dos tipos "depictives" and "resultatives". Las estructuras "depictives" son como las que pones en #6, excepto la última, y no hay mucho problema porque hay mucha similitud con la traducción del español. El problema es con las "resultatives" como las que pones en tu lista:

    He wriggled loose.
    We squirmed free.


    They shot him dead.
    She painted the cabin red.
    I pounded the metal flat.
    John hammered the metal flat.
    We drank the teapot empty


    I shouted myself hoarse.
    She ran herself ragged.


    She ate herself sick.
    He drank himself silly.
    John laughed Mary silly :cross: (Ya te han dicho por qué está mal)

    De nuevo, muchísima gracias.




    Bueno, gracias, pero no soy ninguna experta en nada.
    No voy a traducirlas todas porque, entre otras cosas, algunas necesitan contexto para poder hacer una traducción buena, pero no tienen dificultad alguna.

    Te doy una buena pista:

    Verbo......... hasta (que)....


    We drank the teapot empty. Bebimos té hasta que se acabó (literalmente, hasta que se vacíó la tetera).

    I shouted myself hoarse. Grité hasta quedarme afónico.

    She ate herself sick. Comió hasta que se encontró mal (hasta vomitar).

    They shot him dead. Lo mataron a tiros (literalmente, le dispararon hasta que murió).

    Saludos
     

    valdemar

    Senior Member
    Español mexicano
    That one is impossible - "to laugh" is not a transitive verb. You can however use it reflexively "John laughed himself silly." :tick:

    Gracias Biffo, por la corrección. De hecho esta idea de si el verbo es transitivo o no transitivo es muy interesante y no lo había notado. Por ejemplo, es lo mismo decir "John laughed himsel silly" que "John laughed silly"?. Igual en los demás, por ejemplo "She ate herself seek"= "She ate seek"?. Lo que sería de muchísima ayuda es si se puede construir un equivalente de las frases, por ejemplo, lo que supongo es que "He painted the door green"= "He painted the door in green color", por ejemplo, pero no es tan obvio con las "resultatives".
     

    Chasint

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Gracias Biffo, por la corrección. De hecho esta idea de si el verbo es transitivo o no transitivo es muy interesante y no lo había notado. Por ejemplo, es lo mismo decir "John laughed himsel silly" que "John laughed silly"?. Igual en los demás, por ejemplo "She ate herself seek"= "She ate seek"?. Lo que sería de muchísima ayuda es si se puede construir un equivalente de las frases, por ejemplo, lo que supongo es que "He painted the door green"= "He painted the door in green color", por ejemplo, pero no es tan obvio con las "resultatives".
    First of all you need to understand which meaning of 'silly' we are using.

    Collins Concise English Dictionary © HarperCollins Publishers::

    silly /ˈsɪlɪ/adj ( -lier, -liest)
    • lacking in good sense; absurd
    • frivolous, trivial, or superficial
    • feeble-minded
    • dazed, as from a blow


    "John laughed himself silly" == John laughed so much that he became silly (dazed - unable to think clearly).

    "He drank himself silly." == He drank until he became silly (dazed - unable to think clearly).

    "The boxer punched his opponent silly." == The boxer punched his opponent until his opponent became silly (dazed - unable to think clearly).

    "He painted the door green." == He painted the door [with green paint] until it became/was green.
     

    Archicaballero

    Senior Member
    Colombia/ Spanish
    No. That makes no sense in English. Or are you using "Silly" as Mary's surname? All those capital letters make the whole sentence confusing.

    What are you trying to say? Please give the Spanish version of what you mean.

    I certainly capitalized some words incorrectly :mad:.
    Here is the same question again: Would it be possible to say (rewriting what Valdemar wrote but adding the preposition "at " after the conjugated verb " laughed") John laughed at Mary silly? Thank you
     

    Mackinder

    Senior Member
    Colombian Spanish
    Hehe This is awesome! I used to think this could be possible only for a few cases (or verbs "to open" and "to close") for example "eyes wide shut" because that's a song. :)

    Now I can say a lot of new stuff like "I'll eat candy sated" :)
     

    Chasint

    Senior Member
    English - England
    I certainly capitalized some words incorrectly :mad:.
    Here is the same question again: Would it be possible to say (rewriting what Valdemar wrote but adding the preposition "at " after the conjugated verb " laughed") John laughed at Mary silly? Thank you
    No. As I said before this makes no sense in English. I don't know what you intend it to mean. As I asked before, please can you say what you mean in Spanish. Thank You.
     

    Chasint

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Hehe This is awesome! I used to think this could be possible only for a few cases (or verbs "to open" and "to close") for example "eyes wide shut" because that's a song. :)

    Now I can say a lot of new stuff like "I'll eat candy sated" :)
    Not quite :) That would mean that the candy becomes sated!

    I'll paint the door green. ---> I will paint the door and it will become green.

    I'll eat candy sated. ---> I will eat candy and it will become sated. :confused:

    You have to distinguish carefully between the reflexive use and the transitive use of this structure. The verb "to eat" is being used transitively in your example.

    It seems that it's not quite so easy. As yet I'm not aware of the 'rules'. I think it needs to be discussed further.
     

    Mackinder

    Senior Member
    Colombian Spanish
    Not quite :) That would mean that the candy becomes sated!

    I'll paint the door green. ---> I will paint the door and it will become green.

    I'll eat candy sated. ---> I will eat candy and it will become sated. :confused:

    You have to distinguish carefully between the reflexive use and the transitive use of this structure. The verb "to eat" is being used transitively in your example.

    It seems that it's not quite so easy. As yet I'm not aware of the 'rules'. I think it needs to be discussed further.

    Uh oh that's right.

    What about "She made me eat candy sated"?

    :)
     

    Sprache

    Senior Member
    English/inglés
    Uh oh that's right.

    What about "She made me eat candy sated"?

    :)
    Unfortunately that is ungrammatical and nonsensical. It has a resultative meaning and so it cannot be used that way. You cannot make candy sated nor can anyone make you make candy sated.

    I slammed the door shut - the door is shut
    I ate myself sick - I am sick
    I ate the candy sated :cross: - I am sated, not the candy, therefore it doesn't work.

    I think that this is similar to the construction as those such as:
    I cried myself to sleep. - I cried until I fell asleep.
    The baby was shaken to death. - the shaking killed the baby
     
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    James2000

    Senior Member
    English - South Africa
    John laughed at Mary silly?

    Somebody else has pointed out that that is not correct as it stands. But you could say:

    John laughed himeslf silly at Mary.

    Take comfort from the fact that most native English speakers don't understand the grammar - we just use it. I'm willing to bet there are at least two competing grammatical descriptions.
     

    sound shift

    Senior Member
    English - England
    The French have a term for this type of English structure, and If I translate it word-for-word into Spanish I get "estructura resultativa" - but I don't know if that means anything in Spanish.
     

    srb62

    Senior Member
    British English
    Interesting thread!!
    I have a question!
    Does
    "He drove home drunk" work in exactly the same way as "He painted the door red" ?
    They seem the same and yet different!
     

    loudspeaker

    Senior Member
    British English
    Interesting thread!!
    I have a question!
    Does
    "He drove home drunk" work in exactly the same way as "He painted the door red" ?
    They seem the same and yet different!

    They are different.

    'He painted the door red' is an example of a transitive resultative construction. It expresses the change of state as a result of the event expressed by the matrix verb.

    'He drove home drunk' is subject-oriented. It is understood that the adjective (drunk) is in a copular relationship with the subject (He). The adjective can be moved to the beginning of the sentence, and its function is that of subject complement.
     

    Mackinder

    Senior Member
    Colombian Spanish
    If I say "I love you silly", does that mean I love you until you're silly?

    -Let me go!!!! (is bound hand and foot to a chair)
    -Nope until you break with your boyfriend and come back to me
    -Never!!
    -Fine, but remember: I love you silly. (leaves and slams the door shut)

    :)
     
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    srb62

    Senior Member
    British English
    They are different.

    'He painted the door red' is an example of a transitive resultative construction. It expresses the change of state as a result of the event expressed by the matrix verb.

    'He drove home drunk' is subject-oriented. It is understood that the adjective (drunk) is in a copular relationship with the subject (He). The adjective can be moved to the beginning of the sentence, and its function is that of subject complement.

    Yes, that's what I thought - though I don't know the terminology.
    'drunk' is more or less an adjective describing the subject of the sentence?
    'red' is an adjective describing the object of the sentence following some action on it?
     

    loudspeaker

    Senior Member
    British English
    If I say "I love you silly", does that mean I love you until you're silly?
    No. 'Silly' is modifying 'love', meaning 'I love you to bits' (a lot).
    In 'I love you silly' the patient is not made silly by being loved.
    'I love you crazy' is another very similar example.


    'drunk' is more or less an adjective describing the subject of the sentence?
    'red' is an adjective describing the object of the sentence following some action on it?

    Yes, the secondary predicate (drunk) describes the subject (he).
    It depicts the current state (drunk) of the subject (he).

    Depictive: state of the subject (drunk) during the primary predication (drove).

    'Red' is the resultative phrase that expresses the change of state of the postverbal patient (the door).

    He (agent) painted (activity-denoting verb) the door (postverbal patient) red (resultative phrase).

    Resultative: state of the patient (red) after the primary predication (painted).
     

    pachanga7

    Senior Member
    English - US
    Muchas veces como intérprete he batallado con estas diferencias gramaticales entre los idiomas. Al cabo hay que pensar en qué es lo que se está comunicando. El inglés suele expresar una cualidad particular de moverse con el mismo verbo con que se expresa la acción en sí. Es decir, tenemos palabras que hacen las veces de un verbo y adverbio a la vez. Algunos de los ejemplos que se han tratado en este hilo ilustran este rasgo: slam, fling.

    Cuando decimos She flung the door open, no es que ella literalmente arrojó la puerta sino que soltó la puerta _de una forma energética_ como cuando uno arroja algo (y quedó abierta, que es lo que nos indica open). Slam es hacer chocar _con violencia_. Pero en los dos casos, la persona puede estar o abriendo o cerrando la puerta o inclusive otras cosas, por ejemplo, He slammed the door on my foot, o, She flung the door into the ravine. La idea a veces no queda completa hasta precisarse más contexto, dependiendo del verbo.

    Separando las ideas de qué es lo que se hizo y cómo se hizo, podemos eligir una traducción adecuada según las posibilidades lexicales del otro idioma.
     
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