Slavic approximants before consonants

Linnets

Linnets

Senior Member
Toscana (Tuscany)
Italian
Hello, I noticed in some Slavic Languages there are approximants such as /j, w/ before consonants instead of vowels, as they are common in Romance or Germanic languages e.g. Czech jsem /jsɛm/ or Polish jabłko /ˈjab.wkɔ/. Personally, I find difficult to pronounce correctly those clusters and I tend to replace them with a short vowel [ı̆, ŭ], thus [[ı̆sɛm] and [ˈjabŭkɔ] (this is problematic since it violates the penultimate rule of Polish stress). What do you think about?
 
    • I’ve heard both [sɛm] and [ˈjabkɔ] by native speakers. I’d say you can safely drop those approximates.
     
    I think native speakers sometimes pronounce them if they’re trying to enunciate carefully.

    Listen to the Forvo pronunciations of “jsem”:
    jsem pronunciation: How to pronounce jsem in Czech, Esperanto

    In the isolated word samples, two out of the three speakers include the /j/. In the sentences, neither speaker does. This suggests to me that the /j/ was included in those two samples because the speakers were focusing more than usual on the word.

    Maybe I was wrong about “jabłko,” though: jabłko pronunciation: How to pronounce jabłko in Polish

    All the speakers pronounce the <ł>, even in the sentences. In most cases it’s vowelized.
     
    elroy said:
    Maybe I was wrong about “jabłko,” though
    Click to expand...
    Or maybe I wasn't! Wiktionary gives the pronunciation without the approximant first, and then gives the one with the approximant and says it's rare. This makes me suspect that the Forvo pronunciations are artificially over-enunciated (like the "jsem" ones in which the approximant is pronounced).
     
    ['japkɔ] is normal, ['jabwkɔ~'jabukɔ] is just a spelling pronunciation.

    Final -ł after a consonant may also be deleted in informal speech, as in <szedł> /ʃɛdw~ʃɛt/.

    However, that still leaves a few words like łza, łkać, łgać, łby where the ł can’t be ignored. But you are right that it doesn’t matter whether you think of it as a [w] or a very short non-syllabic “u”… (if there is even a difference).
     
    Linnets said:
    In any case, a [js] or [wk] ([ɫʷk] in old Polish pronunciation) cluster is pronunceable, right?
    Click to expand...
    They are both pronunceable in modern Polish
    aryjski, ampułka
    and there are no aproximations.

    We don't omnit sound in much more complex clusters:
    źdźbło, głupstwo, pstrąg

    However, there is a group of words in which the colloquial pronunciation is simplified:
    jabłko -> japko
    sześćdziesiąt -> sześdziesiąt

    Historically there were yers:
    Yer - Wikipedia
    Jer (głoska) – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia
    a very short vovels, which have disappeared.
     
    Linnets said:
    Hello, I noticed in some Slavic Languages there are approximants such as /j, w/ before consonants instead of vowels
    Click to expand...
    In Standard Russian [w]-like sounds occur only in very specific positions and only in fast casual speech (as a replacement of [və] between an unstressed vowel and a consonant, at least). South Russian dialects generally use labial semivowels as replacements of /v/, only between a vowel and a consonant or universally, i.e. basically in the manner opposite to the described by you.

    /'V.iC/ combinations, on the other hand, often turn into /'VjC/ in speech and perception of many speakers of Standard Russian. Hence the atrocious misspellings "храбрые войны" (i.e. basically "brave wars" instead of "brave warriors"!), "андройд", "гуманойд", "астеройд" etc. However, Russian /j/ in such position is pretty lax to begin with, so no wonder these speakers mix it up with the reduced syllabic /i/.
     
    Awwal12 said:
    In Standard Russian [w]-like sounds occur only in very specific positions and only in fast casual speech (as a replacement of [və] between an unstressed vowel and a consonant, at least). South Russian dialects generally use labial semivowels as replacements of /v/, only between a vowel and a consonant or universally, i.e. basically in the manner opposite to the described by you.

    /'V.iC/ combinations, on the other hand, often turn into /'VjC/ in speech and perception of many speakers of Standard Russian. Hence the atrocious misspellings "храбрые войны" (i.e. basically "brave wars" instead of "brave warriors"!), "андройд", "гуманойд", "астеройд" etc. However, Russian /j/ in such position is pretty lax to begin with, so no wonder these speakers mix it up with the reduced syllabic /i/.
    Click to expand...
    Awwal12, can you tell the difference between войны and воины?
     
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