Slovak: Múčnik vs. zákusok

[Concise]

After being confused by Slovak-Hungarian dictionaries I have checked the Slovak online ones.
I understood that “múčnik” is something, which can be “zákusok” (“jemné sladké pečivo obyčajne plnené alebo zdobené, dezert”), but not always, because everything prepared “z múky” can be “múčnik”.

Some examples, m. is múčnik, z. is zákusok.

1. Spaghetti is m., but not z.

2. A slice of anything called “torta” is both m. and z.

3. Koláč is typically just m., eg. if it is makový, but if it is some special one, ´fooled’ “lekvárom” or “šlahačkou”, then it is a borderline case.

4. Biscuits consumed together with tea are just m., but normally not z.

5. Salty ones like praclík are definitely just m., and never ever z.

So if I say in Hungarian that m. is tészta plus sütemény including teasütemény then I am right, but in case of z. I can say only sütemény and maybe desszert, because its main purpose is to consume it after the main meals.

Having given this analysis, I am curious whether I perfectly understood it.

Sidenote: I certainly checked pictures on web about m. and z., but they did not help me to increase my confidence in the definition.

 

[francisgranada]

For me:

Zákusok is whatever "sütemény" that is not a meal. Practically it is a "dessert".
Múčnik is a kind of dessert/cake and also some kind of meal based on "múka" (koláč, buchty) depending on the mood how it is prepared, independently on what is filled with (lekvár, tvaroh, orechy ...)

I'd never call múčnik the biscuits, spaghetti, torte, salty "ones", etc...

However, this is only my personal experience/opinion ...

 

[Concise]

I am shocked, because your detailed explanation implies that múčnik is a subset of zákusok, while as I understood the definition in the dictionaries it was just the opposite. I mean it was just the opposite only for me.

 

[morior_invictus]

To me, personally, múčnik is always a sweet dessert/snack* and never a main meal (such as palacinky, buchty,. . . ).

Múčnik includes koláč, zákusok (a subset of koláč - if it has cream filling. . .), štrúdla. . .

Zákusok that is cut into pieces with sharp edges and served as such is often called rez (my experience here is that unless the recipe/restaurant/bakery etc. calls it "rez" - e.g. žltkové/vanilkové etc. rezy - people would just use "zákusok" to refer to it regardless of the way it would be cut).

Having said that, I can't remember the last time I heard or read the word "múčnik." It may have something to do with the fact that people prefer to use a specific name, where available, to a generic one (restaurants/bakeries or cookbooks, perhaps, might use the word "múčniky" as the main category and then continue listing the specific types/sub-categories).



múčnik / koláč / zákusok / rez . . .or krémeš (the actual name)

múčnik / koláč (but not "zákusok" and definitely not "rez"). . .or marhuľový koláč (or whatever the recipe might call it)

_____
* just like francisgranada above, I would never call a biscuit "múčnik." "Praclíky," "špagety" etc. are also excluded from what I understand as "múčnik" as they are either not sweet and/or are served as a main meal or I just don't see them as "múčnik."

 

[Concise]

1. It seems that at least we three (I represent just the interpretation of dictionaries) agree on zákusok:

“zákusok” (“jemné sladké pečivo obyčajne plnené alebo zdobené, dezert”

Zákusok is whatever "sütemény" that is not a meal. Practically it is a "dessert".

Zákusok that is cut into pieces with sharp edges

zákusok ….. . . .or krémeš (the actual name)

2. As regards múčnik there is some sort of smaller discrepancy even between you, see buchty:

Múčnik is a kind of dessert/cake and also some kind of meal based on "múka" (koláč, buchty)

múčnik is always a sweet dessert/snack* and never a main meal (such as palacinky, buchty,. . . ).

EDITED: I originally misinterpreted the second quote, because palacinky and buchty are NOT examples of main meals, but múcnik, so there is no discrepancy between you at all.

3. You introduced koláč which seems to have a different definiton from the Hungarian equivalent “kalács”.

Koláč is translated as “lepény”, “pite”, “kalács” and “kuglóf”, so it really seems to be more a group of food, than a simple type with different fillings. Even the English translation confirms the broader meaning of koláč.

4. I understood that my bets/examples were quite bad, see špagety, biscuit etc.

5. Finally there are some comments from you, morior_invictus, that I don’t understand at all.

5/a:

Múčnik includes koláč, zákusok (a subset of koláč - if it has cream filling. . .), štrúdla. . .

It is OK for me (but not for francisgranada, I guess) that you put zákusok into the group of múčnik, because it is how I understood it from the dictionary.

But you also say that zákusok is a subset of koláč, which totally contradicts everything I learnt in this thread. If krémeš is a typical zákusok then it is also a koláč in your set of definitions. So koláč seems to be the same as múčnik based on the dictionary definition of the latter (jedlo z múky, full stop).

5/b: (in the next post, because for some reason I could not add more quotes in this post)

 

[Concise]

múčnik / koláč / zákusok / rez . . .or krémeš (the actual name)

múčnik / koláč (but not 'zákusok' and definitely not 'rez'). . .or marhuľový koláč (or whatever the recipe might call it)

Following your logics, that is zákusok << koláč, and what rez is, I understood the main party of your categorization above the pictures, but didn’t understand why none of the pictures is múčnik. Especially because you also say múčnik includes zákusok.

EDITED: or did you mean they are, but I should not use this word???

 

[morior_invictus]

EDITED: or did you mean they are, but I should not use this word???

I should have provided a legend, sorry.

The first picture:
= I consider it "múčnik" but it is not really the word I would use to describe it if I had to (as it is not very specific)
= I consider it "koláč" and I might even use the word "koláč" to describe it but it wouldn't likely be my word of choice
= I consider it "zákusok" and that is likely the word I would use to describe it (unless I would just call it by its name "krémeš")
= I consider each of the two pieces "rez" (and the two of them together "rezy") but it is not really the word I would use to describe it if I had to

In my vocabulary, every "zákusok" is "koláč" but not every "koláč" is "zákusok" and both are types of "múčnik."

P.S.: I did use "palacinky" and "buchty" as examples of "jedlá z múky" / "múčne jedlá" that do tend to be served as main meals/dishes in my neck of the woods despite the fact that they're sweet (I guess they could be served as desserts but the size of the portion would change).

 

[Concise]

P.S.: I did use "palacinky" and "buchty" as examples of "jedlá z múky" / "múčne jedlá" that do tend to be served as main meals/dishes in my neck of the woods despite the fact that they're sweet (I guess they could be served as desserts but the size of the portion would change).

So my first interpretation was the correct one. In Hungary these dishes are served as main dishes sometimes, typically in rural environment after eg. fazulová polievka, but I guess that this menu is fading away. In my childhood it was quite common, but not nowadays.

 

[Concise]

May I ask a simple, historical question to relax a bit?

My OP was triggered by a section of my course book called V cukrárni.

In this there is a dialogue in which there is a sentence: “prosím si makový koláč, piskótovú roládu a zuvačku”.

I guess including zuvačku maybe is not a mistake, just the result of the laziness of the authors who must have re-edited and sometimes re-written an earlier course book, and it may happen that the latter is from the 70s or 60s, or even earlier.

Is there anyone around who has any knowledge that whether chewing gum was a product sold by a cukráren?

Sidenote: in today’s Hungary lots of cukrászda(=cukráren) are not fully equal to be patisseries, because they sell not just zákusok-type or some kolác-type products, but eg. syrové a zemiakové pagáče, too, so the distinction is a bit harder between a cukráren and a pekárstvo.
In my childhoold (70’s) cukrárne sold mainly zmrzlinu, zákusky, štrúdly, and that’s it. Based on this transformation I guess that before the 70s they may have sold žuvačku or other candies like candy shop in the US or lolly shop in Australia.

 

[Concise]

Btw in the meantime I realized that why you francisgranada listed “torte” as something which are not zákusky. I guess although “torte” are made exactly the same way as zákusky, but by default they are not cut into slices. And zákusok is derived from za+kúsok, isn’t it?

But what if a “torta” is cut and sold as slices? Can I say that they are sold as zákusky?

 

[francisgranada]

But what if a “torta” is cut and sold as slices? Can I say that they are sold as zákusky?

I am not an expert in this "matter" .... However, if it is visually evident that they are slices of "torta", I wouldn't call them "zákusky" but "torta" ....

 

[Concise]

Thx