Slovak: pästiarstiev

Concise

Concise

Senior Member
Hungarian
Since I am an autodidact learner it was not so easy to figure out when exactly we use the different forms in plural genitive of masculine and neuter nouns.

The easisest rule seems to be that if there is a long vowel (or a sort of diphtong) in the penultimate syllable of the noun like in case of “skôlka” I use a suffix with short vowel like “-ok”, so “skôlok”.

And when there is a short vowel in the penultimate syllable like in case of “kabelka” I use a suffix with a diphtong, commonly “ie”, so “kabeliek”.

“Pästiarstiev” seems to be an exemption at first glance unless in Slovak “ia” does not count neither a long vowel (evidently it is not), nor a diphtong. If it is not a diphtong, then one has to pronounce separately “i” and “a” for a normal time, so not like in case of “ie”.

Am I correct and “ia” is not a dipthong? Or am I wrong, because “ia” is a diphtong, too, and “pästierstiev” is just another damned exemption from the general rule? :)

Thanks a lot again.

Hint: in the meantime I had an idea and checked whether there is another noun with the same beginning and found “pästiarka” which Pl. G. is “pästiarok”. Bang!

Anyway if there is some other explanation like the words ending with “-stvo” are different, because the jam of the consonants breaks the rule previously described, or something like that, then I would be glad to learn it and understand how the Slovak think when they form their own language.
 
    • Concise said:
    Am I correct and “ia” is not a dipthong? Or am I wrong, because “ia” is a diphtong, too, and “pästierstiev” is just another damned exemption from the general rule? :)
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    Yes, you're right, you're wrong again. :)

    However, this case shouldn't be the subject of the syllable shortening rule. We can find quite a lot of examples of two successive diphthongs in a word in Slovak. For example, verbs containing -ie- on penultimate syllable get -ia ending in 3rd person pl (bielia, cielia, hniezdia, hviezdia, kliesnia, kriesia, liečia, mienia, mieria, miesia, riešia, vsietia...). There's much more to be demonstrated but I'm not a trained linguist and I'm still struggling with English. Hopefully, more to come later.
     
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    Thanks, and I saw that you modified “tomorrow” to “later”. ;-).

    Nevertheless I would be more relaxed that if either you or somebody else had listed Pl. G. form of some nouns (!) with the same logics as in the example I found.
     
    Concise said:
    Thanks, and I saw that you modified “tomorrow” to “later”. ;-).
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    That happens when I misestimate (usually overestimate) my abilities.
    Concise said:
    Nevertheless I would be more relaxed that if either you or somebody else had listed Pl. G. form of some nouns (!) with the same logics as in the example I found.
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    You probably haven't tried typing "pästiarstiev" (or whatever you wish) into the Retrograde dictionary of Slovak.
     
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    Long story short (punintended), the gen.pl. of -stvo is always -stiev. There is no shortening in this case. I don't know of any principled explanation why.
     
    numerator said:
    Long story short (punintended), the gen.pl. of -stvo is always -stiev. There is no shortening in this case. I don't know of any principled explanation why.
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    I don't know why too. The reason might be phonetic, though. IMHO [sťieu] sounds fine and more complete to a Slovak ear than, say, [sťeu].

    Note that the Czech -stvo and -ství have just -stev in G pl., but it's obviously pronounced (in the more traditional way) as [stɛf]. Unlike Czech, Slovak doesn't normally use the ɛ.
     
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    It may be a bit boastful that among us I propose a potential solution, but let me highlight that even if I know the general rules of the pronounciation of “v” in the different position I tend to forget this rule.

    So I murmured to myself that [pestiarstiev]. But you made me remember that it sounds like [pestiarstieu].

    Well then the last “syllable” is not a diphtong, but a triphtong and you can break it to 2 parts to 2 way. What if it is done as [pes-tiar-sti-eu]? Then the general rule works.

    But since you speak Slovak, not me, in everyday’s life, you know where is a longer pause: between i and e, or between e and u?

    Is my proposal dead at its birth?
     
    Concise said:
    Well then the last “syllable” is not a diphtong, but a triphtong
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    Technically, yes.
    Concise said:
    you know where is a longer pause: between i and e, or between e and u?
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    Neither one nor the other. It would more understandable for you to say that it's pronounced [pesťjarsťjew]. Although it's simplified, you can stick with it. I've checked the GT pronunciation of it and, while sounding inorganically, it's OK.

    There are also fabulous articles about diphthongs and triphthongs on English Wikipedia.
     
    Sry, but what does GT stand for?

    OFF
    @numerator, have you seen in another thread that I found an scholar-wise article about the structure nechať X(Ak.) X(Inśtr.) ?
     
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