Slovak: positioning “rád/rada/etc.”

[Concise]

Hi,

for me it is more or less clear by now where to put “sa/si” in a sentence , and also that “že” or “aj” do not count when we define the word order, but a personal pronoum as the subject or a word like “aký” count.

If there is no “sa/si”, just a ‘naked’ verb like “je”, “má”, “učí”, it is again clear what to do. The same for “som/si/etc.” to be used as an ‘auxillary’ verb to express the person in past forms.

But by now I gathered some doubts with “rád/rada/etc.”, and regarding whether it behaves differently when it is connected to “mať” and to “byť”, or another verb.

“Má rada muža.”: OK, “má” can be in the first place, maybe because of the hidden personal pronoum “ona”.

“Aj my máme radi Žofku.”: clear, “aj” does not count, verb in the 2nd position.

“Žofka moja, sme radi, že….”: no other words in the short clause just “sme radi”, therefore there are only 2 potential word orders, maybe “radi” is the key word to be put in the 2nd position or it cannot preceed any forms of “byť”.

“Ona tu rada býva.”: hmm, a bit strange, it seems that emphasizing “tu” is a stronger rule, then the one to put “býva” as a verb to the 2nd position, but it also makes “rada” come before “býva”. Why?

“Všetci sa máme radi.”: “sa” occupies the second position, fine, and it has no effect on the relative order between “máme” and “radi”.

Just to consider the last three examples, I found no other explanation to the seeming discrepancy, just the one that “rád/rada/etc” cannot preceed “mať” and “byť”, just the other verbs. Note: Maybe interrogative sentences are exemptions.

“Veľmi rád počúva rádio.”
“Mám veľmi rád starého otca.”:
“Sestra rada číta knihy”: these set of examples confirms my observations/feelings a bit. But just a bit.

“Erika, máš rada ovocie?”: so even in interrogative the same word order.

I used google and found much more hits to “Koho máš rada?” than to “Koho rada máš?”

————————-

I deem I am on the right path to understand this matter, but I am sure that not all of my above interpretations are right.

But my main question as always: what are the rules if there is any?

 

[francisgranada]

Má rada muža
Všetci sa máme radi.
Mám veľmi rád starého otca
Erika, máš rada ovocie?
Koho máš rada?

In all your examples above the verb "mať" precedes "rád". I think the explanation consists in the fact that "mať rád" is a fixed expression with the meaning of "to love".

This does not a priori exclude an inverted word order like e.g. "Koho rada máš?", but such a word order sounds rather archaic, poetic or unusual.

***********************************
Ona tu rada býva. Ona tu býva rada.
Veľmi rád počúva rádio. Rádio počúva veľmi rád.
Sestra rada číta knihy. Setra číta knihy rada.

All these examples (=the yours and those added by me) sound perfectly natural as here the word "rád" only specifies the verb (býva, počúva, číta), thus the word order depends on what we want to emphasize more.

(This is my spontaneous observation, not result of any deeper linguistic considerations ...)

 

[Concise]

Thanks. Your answer explicitly dealt with 2/3 of the groups I created, namely with the first and the third of the following:
1) Mať + rád
2) byť +rád
3) any other verb + rád.

Can I properly say that “Žofka moja, radi sme, že….”, or was I right that “byť rád” is similar to “mať rád” and it is also a fixed expression meaning “to be happy/pleased”?

 

[francisgranada]

1) Mať + rád
2) byť +rád
3) any other verb + rád.
Can I properly say that “Žofka moja, radi sme, že….”, or was I right that “byť rád” is similar to “mať rád” and it is also a fixed expression meaning “to be happy/pleased”?

Without any special context, I'd surely prefer "Žofka moja, sme radi, že ...". It sounds more natural and usual to me. Thus "byť rád" is similiar to "mať rád" from this point of view.

*********************
See the difference, for illustration:

Any other verb (possible translations to English)
Ona tu rada býva. She likes to live (dwell) here
Rád počúva rádio. He likes to listen to the radio
Sestra rada číta knihy. My sister likes to read books

"To have" and "to be" (impossible translations to English)
Má rada muža. ** She likes to have her husband (it is a nonsense)
Sme radi, že prídu. ** We like to be that they will come (it's a total nonsense)

 

[franglaiise]

Note that the Slovak word order is rather flexible depending on what you want to emphasize. You might hear all of the following sentences in different situations. The first two are quite neutral, they are simple statements meaning "She likes living here."
Býva tu rada.
Rada tu býva.
Tu býva rada. (Nemala rada to miesto, kde bývala predtým. (Ale) tu býva rada.)
Tu rada býva. (Miluje toto miesto. Tu rada býva, tu rada pracuje, tu rada chodí do divadla...)
Rada býva tu. (Nie, nechce sa sťahovať. Rada býva tu, na dedine, a nie v meste.)
Býva rada tu. (Nie, nechce sa sťahovať. Býva rada tu, na dedine, a nie v meste.)

 

[Concise]

Thus "byť rád" is similiar to "mať rád" from this point of view.

Oh, at last there is some clear and simple rule or structure.

 

[Concise]

Note that the Slovak word order is rather flexible depending on what you want to emphasize.

Indeed, as I realized. It is so close to my mother tongue from this aspect that is a trap also, because it is easy to forget that there are fixed structures, idioms in this high level of freedom. So are there in each languague, of course.

 

[ZdenSvk]

Ona tu rada býva. Ona tu býva rada.
Veľmi rád počúva rádio. Rádio počúva veľmi rád.
Sestra rada číta knihy. Setra číta knihy rada.

All these examples (=the yours and those added by me) sound perfectly natural as here the word "rád" only specifies the verb (býva, počúva, číta), thus the word order depends on what we want to emphasize more.

(This is my spontaneous observation, not result of any deeper linguistic considerations ...)

Ona tu rada býva = She likes to live here / Ona tu býva rada = She likes to be here
Rádio počúva veľmi rád and Sestra číta knihy rada does not sound natural at all.

But I agree - mať rád is a phrase, there is a word order by convention rather than by some linguistic rule.

 

[ZdenSvk]

Thanks. Your answer explicitly dealt with 2/3 of the groups I created, namely with the first and the third of the following:
1) Mať + rád
2) byť +rád
3) any other verb + rád.

Can I properly say that “Žofka moja, radi sme, že….”, or was I right that “byť rád” is similar to “mať rád” and it is also a fixed expression meaning “to be happy/pleased”?

1) Mať rád (to like) is a phrase, so it has fixed word order (reversed word order is archaic) - Therefore "Mám rád studené pivo"
2) Byť rád (to be happy) is another phrase (revered word order sound archaic as well) - Therefore "Sme radi, že si zdravá"
3) Verb + rád (to do something with pleasure) - as in "(on) spieva rád / (on) rád spieva" (He likes to sing). Both word orders sound natural to me. But the dictionary prefers the word order rád + verb (Fero rád spieva)

Hope this helps

 

[francisgranada]

Ona tu rada býva = She likes to live here / Ona tu býva rada = She likes to be here

I understand what you want to say, but it depends also on the concrete context. Both the word orders can be used in both meanings ("she likes to live here" and "she likes to be here").

Rádio počúva veľmi rád and Sestra číta knihy rada does not sound natural at all.

Sorry, but I cannot agree ... I agree that the so called neutral word order is "rád počúva" and "rada číta", but the inverted word order is natural as well.

 

[ZdenSvk]

@francisgranada
There is this old adage: That something can be done, does not mean it should be done.

I am unsure whether slovak language has completely free word order. Even if it has, convention exists. I assume that OP wishes to learn Slovak, because she intends to use it. Therefore conventional word order of the language (where it matters) should be practiced. But I am no linguist, just native speaker.

 

[Concise]

I wonder in which language “Concise” is a female first name. Maybe it resembles some people to Constance, or Consuela.

Otherwise I have not the slightest idea how you deducted my gender, which is actually just the opposite. ;-)

Btw do not forget I quoted sentences, so “I” in a Slovak sentence is not an “I” in real life.

As regards the use of language is a goal, let me add that Francisgranada had a chance to find out my goal which is far beyond the simple use of Slovak. So there is a high probability that he or she adapted and the style of his/her replies consider my approach.

Btw “Francis” is a strong hint, although this name is originally gender-neuter.

Anyway I am thankful for each answer.

 

[ZdenSvk]

I wonder in which language “Concise” is a female first name. Maybe it resembles some people to Constance, or Consuela.

Otherwise I have not the slightest idea how you deducted my gender, which is actually just the opposite. ;-)

Btw do not forget I quoted sentences, so “I” in a Slovak sentence is not an “I” in real life.

As regards the use of language is a goal, let me add that Francisgranada had a chance to find out my goal which is far beyond the simple use of Slovak. So there is a high probability that he or she adapted and the style of his/her replies consider my approach.

Btw “Francis” is a strong hint, although this name is originally gender-neuter.

Anyway I am thankful for each answer.

If I am unsure about the gender of the person on the other side, I use the feminine gender in my writing instead of the masculine. No deduction from your username was made. I do apologise though for this mistake.

 

[Concise]

I see, you are a sort of “balancing power” in this male-oriented world. At least in language. Respect!

 

[ZdenSvk]

I see, you are a sort of “balancing power” in this male-oriented world. At least in language. Respect!

I picked the practice from Anglophone academic literature.

 

[francisgranada]

I am unsure whether slovak language has completely free word order.

On the other hand, I am sure that the Slovak language does not have a completely free word order.

However, the freedom of the Slovak word order is of a relatively high degree comparing it e.g. with the English or the Romance languages.

Btw “Francis” is a strong hint, although this name is originally gender-neuter.

For your information: in my case Francis is the English version of the medieval Latin Franciscus, masculinum

 

[ZdenSvk]

On the other hand, I am sure that the Slovak language does not have a completely free word order.

However, the freedom of the Slovak word order is of a relatively high degree comparing it e.g. with the English or the Romance languages.



For your information: in my case Francis is the English version of the medieval Latin Franciscus, masculinum

I thought about a sentence and tried to completely randomise the word order and i concluded that you are right. I too am now sure, that Slovak does not have completely free word order.The slovak tends to cluster the words which mean something together near each other, but the relative order of the words in a given cluster is relatively free (where convention tends to dictate the relative order within the cluster to make the cluster sound familiar to native speaker.)

 

[Enquiring Mind]

The inversion in "rádio počúva veľmi rád" is fine to my (foreign, professional translator's) ear in the right context. Nobody ever says anything out of context, and this word order would be normal if we're asking what his attitude is to listening to the radio, (not "what does he like listening to?"). In other words, "listening to the radio" is the already established subject in the context, and we want to know how he feels about it. Does he hate it, or does he like it?
The answer rádio počúva veľmi rád is therefore "listening to the radio is something he really likes doing".

Here's another example, about a workshop that makes church organs. Stanislav has mastered the rare skill of making the metal organ pipes:

Okrem bratov pracuje v dielni ešte 6 zamestnancov. Vznikajú tu výlučne organy so zásuvkovými vzdušnicami a mechanickou traktúrou pri výrobe všetkých komponentov je firma sebestačná. Raritou je najmä výroba píšťal zo zliatiny cínu a olova: z valcovaných a hobľovaných plechov ich vyrába Stanislav Rusnák, synovec Gabriela Biesa. Vyučil sa u majstra Jána Kubáta v Kutnej Hore a dnes je jediným na Slovensku, kto toto umenie ovláda. Proces výroby cínovej píšťaly pozostáva z takmer stopäťdesiatich úkonov a vyžaduje si predovšetkým trpezlivosť a precíznosť. Len 26-ročný Stanislav prezradil, že nehrá na nijakom nástroji, ale hudbu počúva rád. (hc.sk)

The first three sentences establish the subject matter: we're talking about making church organ pipes, and we might be inclined to think that someone who does this woould probably know how to play the organ, or at least some kind of musical instrument. But here's the surprise: 26-year-old Stanislav said that he doesn't play any musical instrument, but music is something he likes listening to.

So music is the established infiormation in the context, and the "new information" the word order here is designed to convey is what Stanislav's attitude to listening to music is. Does he like it, or does he not care about music at all? Hudbu počúva rád (in that inverted word order) puts the focus on what his attitude is to music. It's called the functional perspective of the sentence.

 

[Concise]

Your long analysis will definitely help me in how to construct sentences in Slovak. Thanks a lot of a lot.

 

[francisgranada]

Nobody ever says anything out of context ...

In general, I do agree with you. However, the context does not need to be expressed explicitly. Thus the sentence "XY rádio počúva veľmi rád" can be pronounced even without anything said before ... In such case the proper sentence itself (with the given word order) suggests the possible context.

The answer rádio počúva veľmi rád is therefore "listening to the radio is something he really likes doing".

Yes, but not only ... It can also mean "it is the radio that he likes to listen to".
(Hungarian: A rádiót nagyon szívesen hallgatja)