Societe or Compagnie

L

Lynet

New Member
Kuala Lumpur
Malaysia, English
Hi everyone, I am new to cyber forums. I enrolled for French lessons at Alliance Francaise, Kuala Lumpur, Malaisie last year and am now at Beginner Level 3. Would appreciate if someone could tell me why some French companies are called 'Societe' and others 'Compagnie' - so far my internet research on this matter has been unfruitful and my voluminous Collins-Robert French dictionary has not been able to shade much light on this either.

Thanks.
Lynet
 
    • I try to use more société, which is more common*, I have the feeling compagnie is sometimes used like an anglicism, although this is a proper French word like in La Compagnie générale des eaux, la compagnie du canal de Suez

    *In Libération , 858 use of compagnie and 2399 use of société
     
    The word used in the legal definition of the companies is 'société' (société anonyme, société à responsabilité limitée,...)

    There are also some set phrases, like: les compagnies aériennes (société aériennes is not used at all)
     
    There are also some set phrases, like: les compagnies aériennes (société aériennes is not used at all)
    Click to expand...
    Aïe aïe aïe, Valérie, il ne faut jamais dire jamais!;)
    Ainsi, on trouve la SATA (Société Aérienne des Transports Africains), la SATGA (Société Aérienne de Transports Guyane Antilles) jusqu'en 1935 existait la SAB (Société Aérienne Bordelaise) et j'en passe. De plus, "société aérienne" est apparemment utilisé au Canada - remarque, nos amis canadiens ont peut-être voulu éviter le mot "compagnie", de peur d'être accusés, comme c'est souvent le cas, d'angliciser notre belle langue?:D
     
    egueule said:
    Aïe aïe aïe, Valérie, il ne faut jamais dire jamais!;)
    Click to expand...
    Il ne faut jamais dire 'Fontaine, je ne boirai pas de ton eau...

    ... et ce curé n'est pas mon père' ajoutent les espagnols :D
     
    egueule said:
    Aïe aïe aïe, Valérie, il ne faut jamais dire jamais!;)
    Ainsi, on trouve la SATA (Société Aérienne des Transports Africains), la SATGA (Société Aérienne de Transports Guyane Antilles) jusqu'en 1935 existait la SAB (Société Aérienne Bordelaise) et j'en passe. De plus, "société aérienne" est apparemment utilisé au Canada - remarque, nos amis canadiens ont peut-être voulu éviter le mot "compagnie", de peur d'être accusés, comme c'est souvent le cas, d'angliciser notre belle langue?:D
    Click to expand...
    Hi,Lynet
    I hope you would not think that I underestimate yor French. :D (You said you are a beginner, right?) If it could make things easier, the above roughly means :
    Never say never. We do find "societe aerienne ......" . What is more, "societe aerienne" is apparently used in Canada. The word "compagnie" is used more in Cananda perhaps to avoid "anglicizing" the french language.
    Hey, I am also new here. Have fun, Lynet. :)
     
    Charlie, tu as fait une petite erreur d'interprétation :
    Our canadian friends might have avoided using the word "compagnie" on purpose, lest we accuse them, as we often do, of anglicizing our beautiful language.
     
    egueule said:
    Charlie, tu as fait une petite erreur d'interprétation :
    Our canadian friends might have avoided using the word "compagnie" on purpose, lest we accuse them, as we often do, of anglicizing our beautiful language.
    Click to expand...
    No, I did that on purpose, trying to gloss over a few things. You see, it may be hard for some people (me included) to appreciate some of the feelings some people may have towards the French language in France, Belgium and Canada. (I am trying to gloss over again.) ;)
     
    My 'not at' all should have been 'almost not at all', if this makes any sense

    Google gives 211 000 compagnies aériennes and 1900 sociétés aériennes

    and also found in a site dedicated to Canada history:
    Ce site traite du commerce de la fourrure au Canada et comment ce commerce a entraîné l'exploration du pays et la formation de la compagnie la plus ancienne et la plus importante de l'histoire du Canada : Compagnie de la Baie d'Hudson. En fait, l'histoire du commerce de la fourrure, celle de Compagnie de la Baie d'Hudson et celle de l'exploration du Canada sont si liées qu'il est impossible de les séparer.
    http://www.canadiana.org/hbc/intro_f.html
    La Compagnie du Chemin de fer canadien nord has apparently also played some role in the canadian history


    Here is my guess / feeling:
    Compagnie is a word used by the very first economic groups and has a flavour of tradition, when société is a more recently used word

    As an example: although the bank Société Générale has been founded in 1864, La Compagnie des Indes Orientales has been founded in 1664
     
    Some more examples:

    Société:
    -la société nationale des chemins de fer (SNCF), founded in 1938, after a nationalization
    -Société Générale de Belgique,founde in1830
    -Société Lyonnaise des Eaux et de l'Eclairage, founded in 1880
    - Société Industrielle des Transports Automobiles,1919


    Compagnie:
    - La compagnie du Panama, founded around 1878 to build the Panama channel
    -Compagnie Universelle du Canal Maritime de Suez, founded in 1858 to build the Suez channel
    - La compagnie générale d'électricité, created in 1898
    - La compagnie générale des eaux, created in 1853
    - La compagnie des indes occidentales, created in 1664 also
    - la compagnie générale maritime, created in 1855
     
    Tiens tiens!
    Atilf ne donne pas "société" comme synonyme de "compagnie" dans le sens qui nous intéresse ici et ne lui prête pas ce sens : société
    En revanche, il donne de "compagnie" la définition suivante :

    2. a) Société commerciale (spécialisée dans certaines opérations ou assurant un service public), ou société industrielle. Compagnie d'assurances. Le gouvernement de la République demeura soumis au contrôle des grandes compagnies financières (A. FRANCE, L'Île des pingouins, 1908, p. 322).
    SYNT. Compagnie de chemin de fer, de gaz, de navigation, d'omnibus; compagnie aérienne; compagnie pétrolière.
    http://atilf.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/advanced.exe?8;s=200548065;

    Compagnie n'est donc pas du tout un anglicisme, mais bien le terme d'origine, comme le dit Valérie, "société" étant en fait la version abrégée de "société commerciale ou industrielle".
     
    Hi, thanks for all yr replies. It was great to receive a flurry of replies so quickly. My French teacher will be rather relieved - some legal eagles and other inquisitive minds had harassed her last week for an explanation on this issue :confused: .

    My ability to derive answers from internet research is rather handicapped due to my current limited grasp of French:( . Most dictionaries indicate that both words mean the same thing - a company, altho "société" is inclusive of societies and sports clubs as well. An English article by Lex Fori International Lawyers shows that French corporation law recognises/uses the concept of "societe" <French law provides for a number of different types of commercial company, including the societe a responsabilite limitee S.A.R.L.[private limited company], the societe anonyme S.A. [limited liability company], the societe en nom collectif [unlimited partnership], the societe en commandite simple [limited partnership] or the societe en commandite par actions [partnership limited by shares] > rather than "compagnie". Apparently, the term "société" is more common in modern usage.

    I agree with Valerie - I suspect that the usage of "compagnie' in company names/descriptions is probably due to a quirk of history. While doing internet research, I noticed that some French companies which are now known as "Société X" were stated to be previously known as "Compagnie X" eg Société Air France which was formerly known as Compagnie Nationale Air France...and, as Valerie has helpfully pointed out, older French company names use the term "Compagnie" while the usage of 'Societe" in French company names had only surfaced in modern times. Probably, for historical reasons too, French companies in certain industries are referred to as "Compagnie X" and certain others as "Société X" eg compagnie aerienne (ignoring the fact that, as egueule helpfully pointed out, Canada uses "société aerienne" while France prefers to use "compagnie aérienne" instead! - thanks, Charlie2 for the quick interpretation) and société commune.

    I am starting to have real fun with French, especially when interpretating what some of you have written in French - it takes some time but with a reasonably good dictionary, at least I can understand the communication trails and pick up some new words outside my weekly French class.

    :)
     
    valerie said:
    The word used in the legal definition of the companies is 'société' (société anonyme, société à responsabilité limitée,...)

    There are also some set phrases, like: les compagnies aériennes (société aériennes is not used at all)
    Click to expand...

    I think you hit something important here. The words used in the legal definitions of the companies, sociétés, compagnies, partnership may vary from country to country and even from an act to another within the same country.
    Les droits et obligations des personnes morales ainsi désignées peuvent varier. So I won't offer any solution but attach a quote from the Office de la langue française to help you understand why, if we seem mixed up in Canada, this has nothing to do with our respect for the language of Marianne, Egueule or Brigitte Bardot ;)

    Domaine(s)*:
    *-*droit
    ******droit civil
    français
    société*n. f.
    terme recommandé par l?Office québécois de la langue française

    Équivalent(s)*
    English
    partnership

    Définition*:
    Groupement de personnes qui, dans les conditions prévues par la loi, affectent à une entreprise commune des biens ou leur industrie, en vue de partager le bénéfice qui pourra en résulter.

    Note(s)*:
    L'usage du terme société au Québec pose depuis longtemps des difficultés sémantiques qui viennent principalement du fait qu'on y oppose les sociétés (constituées en vertu du Code civil) aux compagnies (constituées en vertu de la Loi sur les compagnies) sur le modèle de la distinction anglaise entre partnership, groupement à but lucratif purement contractuel dépourvu de la personnalité juridique, et company, groupement, à but lucratif ou non, créé par un acte de puissance publique, et doté de la personnalité juridique. Il en résultait que la société par actions, étant une compagnie, n'était pas considérée en dépit de son nom, comme une société. Les sociétés se divisent en sociétés de personnes, formées en considération de la personne des associés, et en société de capitaux, où la personnalité des associés est indifférente ou secondaire. La catégorie des sociétés de personnes comprend les sociétés en nom collectif, en commandite et en participation, et celle des sociétés de capitaux comprend la société par actions, seule de son espèce au Québec et également seule dotée par la loi de la personnalité morale. Quant au terme compagnie (abréviation Cie), ce nom était réservé sous l'Ancien Régime, aux sociétés commerciales constituées par privilège royal (ex. : la Compagnie des Indes); plus tard sont apparues des compagnies assumant un service public (ex. : compagnie de chemin de fer) et le terme a enfin perduré dans le domaine de l'assurance et de la navigation.

    [Office de la langue française,*2001]
     
    Gil said:
    I think you hit something important here. The words used in the legal definitions of the companies, sociétés, compagnies, partnership may vary from country to country and even from an act to another within the same country.
    Click to expand...
    You are fully right, Gil, shame on me. My comment on the usage of société in the legal area was refering to France only.


    I'm not completely sure I understand the note you quoted, probably because the concept explained of partnership is unknown to me (groupement à but lucratif purement contractuel dépourvu de la personnalité juridique :confused: ). Anyway I wanted to add that there is another word in French in France ( :eek: ) used for describing legally and in usual life a groupment not aimed at earning money: Association. Sorry if I am off topic here.

    Gil said:
    et le terme a enfin perduré dans le domaine de l'assurance et de la navigation
    Click to expand...
    Yes, another set phrase in French (at least in France) is les compagnies d'assurance
     
    Here is what was explained to me as far as the difference between une compagnie et une société. Une société is basically a corporation. The corporation has individual branches that make up individual companies (compagnies). An example would be General Mills who makes cereal. General Mills would be the société who is in charge of Kellog's (la compagnie). I can't really think of any other examples off hand. Again, this is what was explained to me. In my opinion, there is actually very little difference between une compagnie et une société. Unless you're writing a very formal report, I wouldn't worry too much about the difference.

    I know some of you out there would disagree, but I also wouldn't worry too much about the difference between "parce que" and "car." Basically, "car" is used in writing (not so much in everyday colloquial language) and parce que is much more common. Yes, there may be a technical difference between the two, but who really cares?
     
    Semiller, I must say that I totally disagree... In your example, General Mills would be the "groupe" and Kellog's would be a "filiale". But, still, they are both "sociétés" or "entreprises".
     
    Again, this is what was explained to me. I'm not saying that I believe everything I'm told. To be honest, I must agree that was explained to me what not all that clear. I feel that the previous comments on this thread have been much more enlightening than what was explained to me. Merci à tous qui ont expliqué!
     
    Hello everyone

    I would just like to add that here, in Québec, we use compagnie as a "Société par actions constituée en vertu de la Loi sur les compagnies du Québec"
    like stated here : http://www.granddictionnaire.com/btml/fra/r_motclef/index1024_1.asp

    I think in France, this word is considered an "anglicisme" in the sense of company.
    All this to say that here, in Québec, we do not use certain words in the same way they are used if France. I was denied a position as a translation because I used the word "Compagnie" instead of "Entreprise" in the test, and it was a French person correcting this test.
    All this to say the "correct" word to use depends on country you're living in.
     
    just to put the final word on this lengthy (but old) discussion :p
    the on-line French dictionary cntrl : http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/compagnie
    puts the definition of compagnie as follows:
    Société commerciale (spécialisée dans certaines opérations ou assurant un service public), ou société industrielle. Compagnie d'assurances. Le gouvernement de la République demeura soumis au contrôle des grandes compagnies financières (A. France, L'Île des pingouins,1908, p. 322).SYNT. Compagnie de chemin de fer, de gaz, de navigation, d'omnibus; compagnie aérienne; compagnie pétrolière.


     
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