Soprana

tsoapm

Senior Member
🇬🇧 English (England)
Hi all,

This one might be a bit tricky to explain. Anyway, the long and short of it is that I’d like an English translation for the word 'soprana'.

The source:

Soprano o sottana?

Quante aureole contate sulla modella vestita da Hannah Marshall?

I know that it says 'soprano' and not 'soprana', but this is from a series of articles which practically always involves a contrast and a play on words. Searching on www.etimo.it I found:

« Soprana » si disse Una foggia di sopravveste |in opposizione a Sottana|.

I have access to some images which have nothing whatsoever to do with sopranos, but show this peculiar dress surrounded by halos, so I think what I’m really after is this 'soprana'.

Now, does anyone know how the devil it might be translated into English? Apparently it's (from various web sources):

Sopravveste senza maniche che i seminaristi indossavano sulla sottana
oppure
Sopravveste senza maniche che alcuni seminaristi indossano sopra la tonaca.

2 ant. Sopravveste antica, lunga fino ai piedi

Grazie 1000 per qualsiasi indicazione!

Mark
 
  • Yulan

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Hello Mark :)


    sopravveste
    • s.f.
    • 1 (Abbigl, ant) overgarment.
    • 2 (Mil, ant) surcoat.
    This is what Sansoni suggests.

    Though "soprana" surely has different English names depending on local ancient traditions (Mesopotamia, Egypt, Roman Empire ... I've also found Ancient Ireland ...)

    Ciao!

    EDIT:
    After reading Blackman's post [ciao B. BTW!] I'm not sure whether I got it right ;-)
     
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    italtrav

    Senior Member
    English
    Don't know if this will help, but the sottana went into French as soutane, and English took the term straight from the French. Maybe a search under soutane would get you somewhere.
     

    tsoapm

    Senior Member
    🇬🇧 English (England)
    Grazie per le indicazioni,

    It plays on sotto-sopra. Sotto- ana or sopra-ana?

    Quindi, teoricamente dovrebbe essere ‘sopra-ano’, dal latino super-anus. :D

    Scherzi a parte, era una delle motivazioni per scegliere la connotazione ecclesiastica, già suggerito dalle definizioni che avevo trovato. C’è anche che il resto del articolo giocava sul angelico e diabolico; forzato, ma non è mica colpa mia...

    Don't know if this will help, but the sottana went into French as soutane, and English took the term straight from the French. Maybe a search under soutane would get you somewhere.

    È precisamente quello che ho fatto. Trovo che nella chiesa rimane ‘soprana’. Non molto soddisfacente, ma credo che è comunque la risposta giusta. Purtroppo, il termine non sarà noto, quindi rendere il gioco di parole era anche più difficile che pensavo...

    Pazienza :rolleyes:
     

    Lorena1970

    Banned
    Italy, Italiano
    I think it may be like this:

    soprano o sottana ?

    which plays on:

    sopr ana (i.e.sort of a clerical short garment) and sott ano ( i.e. kind of dress prolonged below the anus)

    but also with

    sopr ano (a garment which starts above the anus) and sott ana ( skirt but also a medieval garment and also a petticoat )

    Remember that "sottana" doesn't only mean "gonna" but it also refers to a medieval garment and to petticoat (sottoveste)

    sottana sf
    SIN gonna; anche, sottoveste (http://dizionari3.corriere.it/dizionario_italiano/S/sottana.shtml )

    sottana
    ‘un indumento che anticamente faceva parte dell’abbigliamento sia maschile sia femminile ed era costituito da una tunica fornita di maniche, spesso di tessuto pregiato e riccamente ornato, che s’indossava sotto l’abito esterno o il mantello, sporgendone con funzione decorativa’ (Grande Dizionario della Lingua Italiana, fondato da Salvatore Battaglia, Torino, UTET, 1961-2002). (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ij5HMpk8ohQJ:www.accademiadellacrusca.it/faq/faq_risp.php%3Fid%3D5678%26ctg_id%3D44+%22sottana%22+%2B+indumento+medievale&cd=2&hl=it&ct=clnk&gl=it&source=www.google.it )

    I hope to have been able to explain my point of view on such a sophisticated and clever play on words! Maybe you can find a similar play on words based on names of similar British garments...?

    HTH
     

    tsoapm

    Senior Member
    🇬🇧 English (England)
    sott ano ( i.e. kind of dress prolonged below the anus)

    sopr ano (a garment which starts above the anus)

    Ah, you really think that might be it? I was only being childish. I’ve got Devoto-Oli here, and it doesn’t indicate anything of the sort, but dictionaries don’t know everything, obviously.

    I hope to have been able to explain my point of view on such a sophisticated and clever play on words!

    Yes, thank you, though I’m not sure I agree that it’s a sophisticated and clever play on words. :)
     

    Lorena1970

    Banned
    Italy, Italiano
    Sorry for bening misleading!

    sopr ano and sott ano
    are NOT into dictionaries, it was my own explanation, i.e. I thought they were used to playfully describe a garment that is prolonged above/below the anus...!:D TGIF!
     
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    panzona

    Senior Member
    May I ask you where the sentence originally appears?
    Is it a "controlled" medium (a book) or something like a fashion magazine?
    It is important, to my point of view...

    If you can cross out the typo, being it an accurate publication, then I won't go into further speculations, my firends above have done enough... :D

    BUT,
    if it's a magazine, a press release or the such, I would say that it's a mistake in printing... not a typo, but probably a hypercorrection by somebody (the graphic who did the layout, the proofreader) who didn't know what a sopranA is and, given the times of this kind of publication, didn't have time or bother to countercheck with the author.

    IF
    it's sopranA, like I suspect, the play is, in my opinion, the first you've mentioned, sacred/profane (soprana = ecclesial garnment, "sacred" - see the halos, like an image of a saint || sottana = women's garnment, mundane, the nice model), with the addition of the nice opposition sopra/sotto, which hasn't, though, in my opinion, any other role than that (no real reference to the meaning of sopra-sotto, I mean).

    Just my two cents... :)
     

    Giorgio Spizzi

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Dear all,

    if the problem is still "does anyone know how the devil [soprana] might be translated into English?", I beg to insist on the two options found in the monumental Webster, which I offered in my post #4.
    "Surcoat", or "surcote": a fitted coat or robe made in short or long styles with or without sleeves ad often with a fur lining and worn by men and women in late medieval times b (1) a sleeved or sleeveless tunic of late medieval times worn over armour and often emblazoned with heraldic devices (2) a similar garment worn on formal occasions by members of various orders of nighthood 2: an outdoor jacket use. hip length and belted worn chiefly by men and boys.

    AFA Italian dictionaries are concerned, the big Treccani gives us:
    soprana s.f. [femm.sost. di soprano1] - (abbigl.) sopravveste senza maniche portata talora da seminaristi sopra la sottana.

    soprano1 (o sovrano) agg. [lat. volg. *superanus, *supranus, der. di super "sopra"]. - 1. a. Superiore, che sta di sopra, che sta più in alto [...]. b.(geogr.) In denominazioni geografiche, superiore: Petralia Soprana (in contrapposizione a Petralia Sottana). c. ... ...

    all the best.

    GS
     

    tsoapm

    Senior Member
    🇬🇧 English (England)
    if the problem is still "does anyone know how the devil [soprana] might be translated into English?", I beg to insist on the two options found in the monumental Webster, which I offered in my post #4.

    I'm sure you're right that it's a possible translation of 'soprana', but not, I think, in my context. I can assure you that the dress in question clearly had absolutely nothing to do with the medieval period. It was instead, rather stupidly modern, or perhaps post-modern.
     
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