South Slavic Dialect Continuum - Classifications

DarkChild

Senior Member
Bulgarian
MOD EDIT: Moved from the standard Language Comprehension thread

The Pirin Macedonian sounds the most natural to me, along with the Shopski, although I wouldn't classify them as strictly "Bulgarian".
And what do you classify them as?:rolleyes:
 
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  • Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    And what do you classify them as?:rolleyes:
    I'll definately not classify them as Bulgarian in any conceivable way, with Pirin Macedonian obviously being a Macedonian dialect, and Shopski being just that, Shopski (neither Bulgarian or Macedonian, but a South Slavic transitional language).
    Sort of like Kumanovski, which is a transition into southern Serb Torlak. Then again, Kumanovski is part of the historic Shop region.

    In retrospect, I will go on to say, that I declare the inhabitants of the Bogdanci/Gevgelija area in Macedonia, to be speaking Bulgarian, and nothing but Bulgarian.


    As I can see some obvious accusations coming my way, I'll say that I've never called myself a Macedonian (in the ethnic sense), nor will I ever, and my motivations cannot be politically motivated in any way. I'm just making observations from a linguistic point of view, so try to not be offended. ;-)
     
    As I can see some obvious accusations coming my way, I'll say that I've never called myself a Macedonian (in the ethnic sense), nor will I ever, and my motivations cannot be politically motivated in any way. I'm just making observations from a linguistic point of view, so try to not be offended. ;-)


    In my experience, pretty much everybody who wants to convince somebody else that he or another person does not speak the language they claim they speak, but in fact speak another language, will make the assertion of not being motivated by anything else but pure linguistic science. It warms my heart when I read that claim.
     

    Arath

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    The Pirin Macedonian sounds the most natural to me, along with the Shopski, although I wouldn't classify them as strictly "Bulgarian".

    It's interesting because the dialects spoken in Pirin Macedonia don't have the antepenultimate stess of the standard Macedonian language (as far as I know neither do the dialects spoken in Eastern Vardar Macedonia). In fact, they have a universal last syllable stress in the aorist tense, in contrast with the dialects of Northwestern and Eastern Bulgaria.
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    In my experience, pretty much everybody who wants to convince somebody else that he or another person does not speak the language they claim they speak, but in fact speak another language, will make the assertion of not being motivated by anything else but pure linguistic science. It warms my heart when I read that claim.
    You are making quite some wrongful assumptions there my friend, as I don't have to try to convince anybody, as the facts speak for themselves. :)
    Pay note to the part where you say "they claim to speak".

    I've been to Bulgaria numerous times, and 9 out of 10 Pirin Macedonians tell me that they speak Macedonian.
    I always try to get a confirmation out of them by asking: "so hold on, you don't speak Bulgarian, but Macedonian?". They always reply "yes" to this.
    If from a linguistic point of view they speak Macedonian, and not Bulgarian, and they say this themselves too, I believe this part is solved.
    On to the Shopi.

    The Shopski spoken on both the Macedonian and Bulgarian territory can factually be called one and the same language/dialect.
    However, the speakers on the Macedonian side claim they speak a Macedonian dialect, and the speakers on the Bulgarian side claim they speak a Bulgarian dialect.
    Logic dictates that this is impossible, and hence these feeling can only be political ones, which have no linguistic base.
    You can not have two nearly identical dialects which are classified as two dialects of two officially recognized different languages. It's absurd.


    This is not a political discussion, but a linguistic one. I'm betting the average inhabitant of Bulgaria will feel offended by my statements, however, I've already showed that the pendulum swings both ways here.
    There is language spoken on Macedonian soil which is not classifiable as Macedonian, and there is language spoken on Bulgarian soil which is not classifiable as Bulgarian. This is not the only part in the world where it is like this. The imaginary political boundaries drawn up in the 19th century shouldn't influence our objective view on the (ethno)linguistic composition of South Slavic peoples; let's leave that to the fanatics.
    No hard feelings here towards anybody by the way.
     
    Logic dictates that this is impossible, and hence these feeling can only be political ones, which have no linguistic base.
    You can not have two nearly identical dialects which are classified as two dialects of two officially recognized different languages. It's absurd.

    Logic dictates no such thing. Linguistic identity is not made of nor by isoglosses but by political and social factors. Now, since politics existed much before modern linguistics was ever conceived, politics naturally gets to have the primary say about linguistic identity. If linguists are not happy, they can always satisfy themselves dealing with (studying and classifying) dialects and stop meddling in linguistic identity and identity politics in general.

    But again, in my opinion it is more often than not true that those dealing with linguistic identity have their own political agendas. You seem to be one of them. So am I, but I don't think I hide that fact.

    This is not a political discussion, but a linguistic one.

    No, it is exactly the opposite. The moment you start playing with linguistic identity you've crossed into politics. If you want to be purely linguistic, speak about dialects and dialect groups or about standard languages and their norms. But the moment you start throwing the word "language" about without these additional qualifications, by default you are dealing with politics.
     

    TriglavNationalPark

    Senior Member
    Slovenian (a.k.a. Slovene)
    No, it is exactly the opposite. The moment you start playing with linguistic identity you've crossed into politics. If you want to be purely linguistic, speak about dialects and dialect groups or about standard languages and their norms. But the moment you start throwing the word "language" about without these additional qualifications, by default you are dealing with politics.

    MOD NOTE: Denis is absolutely right, so please limit the discussion to purely linguistic issues.
     
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    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    It's interesting because the dialects spoken in Pirin Macedonia don't have the antepenultimate stess of the standard Macedonian language (as far as I know neither do the dialects spoken in Eastern Vardar Macedonia). In fact, they have a universal last syllable stress in the aorist tense, in contrast with the dialects of Northwestern and Eastern Bulgaria.
    What you say is true, I'm not going to deny that.
    However, as you say, they share a lot of commonalities with the language spoken in Eastern Macedonia, as far as stress goes.
    Just two examples:
    káži vs kaží.
    Znáči vs značí.
    My girlfriend has a friend from Sandanski, and I clearly hear her talking like this with her other friends from Sandanski.
    Overal I'd still say that Pirin Macedonian, just like regular Eastern Macedonian, has a very Bulgarian feel to me, when it comes down to stress.

    However, I can turn it around, and say that even the Bulgarian from Sofia has a very Macedonian feel to me.
    This is what my girlfriend (from Sofia) says:
    She: Се видиме
    Macedonian: Се видиме
    She: чуеш ли защо ти збора(м)?
    Macedonian: чуеш ли зашто ти зборам?
    Her parents are from Pernik though, so she could be influenced by that, I can't say for sure.

    A potentially endless discussion is what you can get out of these things... :)

    PS: I'll leave it at that though, as it is getting a bit off-topic.
     

    Arath

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I've been to Bulgaria numerous times, and 9 out of 10 Pirin Macedonians tell me that they speak Macedonian.
    I always try to get a confirmation out of them by asking: "so hold on, you don't speak Bulgarian, but Macedonian?". They always reply "yes" to this.
    If from a linguistic point of view they speak Macedonian, and not Bulgarian, and they say this themselves too, I believe this part is solved.

    There is language spoken on Macedonian soil which is not classifiable as Macedonian, and there is language spoken on Bulgarian soil which is not classifiable as Bulgarian.

    We may have to split because the moderators in this forum are very strict. I sincerely hope that these last few comments don't get deleted.

    I can scientifically prove that the dialects spoken in Pirin Macedonia are closer to the standard Bulgarian language than to the Western Macedonian dialects and the standard Macedonian language.

    First, the yat border crosses this region, so in the extreme South East (Gotse Delchev), they speak an Eastern Bulgarian dialect - they have vowel reduction, allophonic palatalization in front of "e" and "i" and the reflex of ѫ and ъ is the schwa vowel, so they say път (/pɤ̞t/) and сън (/sɤ̞n/), not пат (/pat/) and сон (/sɔn/) as in standard Macedonian

    Throughout this region the consonant clusters *tj and *dj are pronounced /ʃt/ and /ʒd/, so people from this region say леща (/'lɛʃta/) and вежда (/'vɛʒda/), unlike the standard Macedonian леќа (/'lɛca/) and веѓа (/'vɛɟa/).

    The stress position in free, unlike the antepenultimate stress of western Macedonian dialects.

    The dialects of Pirin Macedonia don't have three definite articles, like standard Macedonian.

    They don't have има- and сум- constructions.

    The biggest difference between the dialects of Pirin Macedonia and the standard Macedonian language is the absence of Serbian and Latin words. I would really like to know if a 70-year-old person who claims to speak Macedonian, understands words like "negiram", "afirmiram".

    káži vs kaží.
    Káži is used by people from Plovdiv or Haskovo or even my own grandparents from Southern Starozagorsko. In fact it is only in the extreme Northeast that people say kaží.

    Znáči vs značí.
    I have never heard anyone say značí, you must be confused.

    This is what my girlfriend (from Sofia) says:
    She: Се видиме
    Macedonian: Се видиме.

    People from Sofia say ш'се видиме. The "ш" might be difficult to hear.
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    We may have to split because the moderators in this forum are very strict. I sincerely hope that these last few comments don't get deleted.
    I guess I'm allowed to continue the discussion here. :)

    I can scientifically prove that the dialects spoken in Pirin Macedonia are closer to the standard Bulgarian language than to the Western Macedonian dialects and the standard Macedonian language.
    Oh boy...I feel a difficult discussion coming up.

    First, the yat border crosses this region, so in the extreme South East (Gotse Delchev), they speak an Eastern Bulgarian dialect - they have vowel reduction, allophonic palatalization in front of "e" and "i" and the reflex of ѫ and ъ is the schwa vowel, so they say път (/pɤ̞t/) and сън (/sɤ̞n/), not пат (/pat/) and сон (/sɔn/) as in standard Macedonian
    You are absolutely right.
    I do consider the Yat-border to be important, although not a be-all-end-all solution to any question regarding this issue.
    Gotse Delchev is, by my definition, a place where they speak a Bulgarian dialect. I wouldn't call it an Eastern Bulgarian dialect though.

    Throughout this region the consonant clusters *tj and *dj are pronounced /ʃt/ and /ʒd/, so people from this region say леща (/'lɛʃta/) and вежда (/'vɛʒda/), unlike the standard Macedonian леќа (/'lɛca/) and веѓа (/'vɛɟa/).
    I'm not that interested in "standard Macedonian"; fact of the matter is, that the pronunciation you speak of, is to some degree quite common in Eastern Macedonia.
    My pronunciation is a northern (Skopje) one, and I pronounce леќа andвеѓа as лека andвега.
    As I've said: the Eastern Macedonian speaking has a very Bulgarian feel to me. :)

    The stress position in free, unlike the antepenultimate stress of western Macedonian dialects.
    Like you say: in Western Macedonian dialects yes.
    Even some northern dialects have (appearant) free stress.

    The dialects of Pirin Macedonia don't have three definite articles, like standard Macedonian.
    Correct. :)

    They don't have има- and сум- constructions.
    Quite true.

    The biggest difference between the dialects of Pirin Macedonia and the standard Macedonian language is the absence of Serbian and Latin words. I would really like to know if a 70-year-old person who claims to speak Macedonian, understands words like "negiram", "afirmiram".
    Well, as far as "afirmiram" goes: this is the first time in my life that I've heard this word.
    I would say "потвърдам".

    Káži is used by people from Plovdiv or Haskovo or even my own grandparents from Southern Starozagorsko. In fact it is only in the extreme Northeast that people say kaží.
    I hear kaží coming out of the mouth of every living Bulgarian. The only time when I don't hear it, is when I hear this girl from Sandanski talk.
    This summer I'm going to Burgas from Skopje, by car. I'll stop over in Haskovo, and have a hear. :)

    I have never heard anyone say značí, you must be confused.
    Most certainly not, sir.
    From Sofia to Sozopol, I hear značí all the time.
    I can even recall an exact conversation between two men from Kranevo and Sofia that I heard lately in a bar. The guy from Sofia said: "značí".

    People from Sofia say ш'се видиме. The "ш" might be difficult to hear.
    Regardless of what is meant, there is definately no ш present.
    Remember, I made a satirical comment, about how I could turn it around, and say that even Sofiski could sound Macedonian to me. :cool:
     
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    Arath

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I can post the links to two videos, broadcast perhaps 50 or more years ago on the Macedonian national TV in the then Macedonian language. The only differences between the Macedonian language used in these videos and the standard Bulgarian language are different stress position and the pronunciation of Ѣ, Ѫ, Ъ, Щ and ЖД. Otherwise, it is perfectly understandable to Bulgarian speakers, much more so than the modern version of the Macedonian language with the many Serbian and Latin words. Why has the language changed so much in so little time?

    In one of the videos, one can see how people from Blagoevgrad (then Gorna Dzhumaya) are being taught the literary Macedonian language by writing words in Standard Bulgarian (using the orthography before 1945) on the blackboard then an arrow pointing to their equivalent in literary Macedonian. I really looks like teaching someone a foreign language: first give the word in the native language and then its equivalent in the target language.

    Well, as far as "afirmiram" goes: this is the first time in my life that I've heard this word.
    I would say "потвърдам".

    Again, I can give you links from national Macedonian TV channels using this word.

    If any moderator is reading this, please, let me know if I'm allowed to post these links. [Contacted via PM -- TNP]
     
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    DarkChild

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    However, I can turn it around, and say that even the Bulgarian from Sofia has a very Macedonian feel to me.
    This is what my girlfriend (from Sofia) says:
    She: Се видиме
    Macedonian: Се видиме
    She: чуеш ли защо ти збора(м)?
    Macedonian: чуеш ли зашто ти зборам?
    Her parents are from Pernik though, so she could be influenced by that, I can't say for sure.

    A potentially endless discussion is what you can get out of these things... :)

    PS: I'll leave it at that though, as it is getting a bit off-topic.

    I don't know what she's influenced by but this definitely doesn't sound like anything a young person from Sofia would say. Се видиме without anything in the beginning sounds very unnatural for any dialect in Bulgarian. I would bet that she either said some form of ще (ше, шъ, ш') or хайде (айде, ай, etc.) in the beginning. And зборам is definitely not a word used in Sofia or anywhere else for that matter, unless maybe in some extreme dialects. So the person from your example is not a typical case of Sofia dialect.

    By the way, I very much doubt your claim that 9 out of 10 people in South-Western Bulgaria would tell you they speak Macedonian.
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    I can post the links to two videos, broadcast perhaps 50 or more years ago on the Macedonian national TV in the then Macedonian language. The only differences between the Macedonian language used in these videos and the standard Bulgarian language are different stress position and the pronunciation of Ѣ, Ѫ, Ъ, Щ and ЖД. Otherwise, it is perfectly understandable to Bulgarian speakers, much more so than the modern version of the Macedonian language with the many Serbian and Latin words. Why has the language changed so much in so little time?
    The language has changed mostly because of (forced) Serbization of the Macedonian people.
    What can I say...Bulgaria wasn't a part of the SFRJ, and the inhabitants of Vardar Macedonia got Serbisized, linguistically speaking.
    But you know this.

    In one of the videos, one can see how people from Blagoevgrad (then Gorna Dzhumaya) are being taught the literary Macedonian language by writing words in Standard Bulgarian (using the orthography before 1945) on the blackboard then an arrow pointing to their equivalent in literary Macedonian. I really looks like teaching someone a foreign language: first give the word in the native language and then its equivalent in the target language.
    I wouldn't say that this sounds completely objective.
    Weren't they already being taught literary Bulgarian before that, by the Bulgarian exarchate? Hence, this literary Bulgarian would have been a good reference point for learning another literary language? You'll agree with me that there was never an official literary Pirin Macedonian language.

    Again, I can give you links from national Macedonian TV channels using this word.

    If any moderator is reading this, please, let me know if I'm allowed to post these links.
    The language used on TV sometimes sounds completely ridiculous and pretentious to me. I wouldn't attach much value to it if I were you.
    A lot of these words I, as many of my fellow Skopians, would never use. Never ever.

    The average Bulgarian that watches Macedonian TV and hears "leglo" will think "Hah they speak Bulgarian after all!", only to be completely confused and later disappointed when he finds out that every living person talks about "krevet", which is Serbian for bed.
    I could make quite a lengthy list with examples like this.
     

    Arath

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I wouldn't say that this sounds completely objective.
    Weren't they already being taught literary Bulgarian before that, by the Bulgarian exarchate? Hence, this literary Bulgarian would have been a good reference point for learning another literary language? You'll agree with me that there was never an official literary Pirin Macedonian language.

    Yes, they had been taught literary Bulgarian, for many years perhaps. Ever since the standard Bulgarian language arose in the middle of the 19th century, people from all over Bulgaria, including the geographical region Macedonia, were taught this language. People like Jane Sandanski and Gotse Delchev are known to have used it.

    The language used on TV sometimes sounds completely ridiculous and pretentious to me. I wouldn't attach much value to it if I were you.
    A lot of these words I, as many of my fellow Skopians, would never use. Never ever.
    We don't have that big a difference between the standard language used on television and everyday speech. There definitely are differences but they are mainly restricted to ones of pronunciation.

    The average Bulgarian that watches Macedonian TV and hears "leglo" will think "Hah they speak Bulgarian after all!", only to be completely confused and later disappointed when he finds out that every living person talks about "krevet", which is Serbian for bed.
    I could make quite a lengthy list with examples like this.

    We have and use the word "креват". In some cases it is preferred over "легло" as in "креватна гимнастика".
     
    The average Bulgarian that watches Macedonian TV and hears "leglo" will think "Hah they speak Bulgarian after all!", only to be completely confused and later disappointed when he finds out that every living person talks about "krevet", which is Serbian for bed.

    Erm, krevet is actually a loanword from Ottoman Turkish, and to be even more precise, it got there from Greek. You sure it entered Macedonian via Serbian and that it isn't a borrowing Macedonian and Serbian share?
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    I don't know what she's influenced by but this definitely doesn't sound like anything a young person from Sofia would say. Се видиме without anything in the beginning sounds very unnatural for any dialect in Bulgarian. I would bet that she either said some form of ще (ше, шъ, ш') or хайде (айде, ай, etc.) in the beginning. And зборам is definitely not a word used in Sofia or anywhere else for that matter, unless maybe in some extreme dialects. So the person from your example is not a typical case of Sofia dialect.
    As I said: her parents are from a village near Breznik, Pernik, very close to the Serbian border.
    She also uses words like "ружна" for "ugly", which I do not believe are part of common Bulgarian vocabulary.

    By the way, I very much doubt your claim that 9 out of 10 people in South-Western Bulgaria would tell you they speak Macedonian.
    I have an interesting story to tell about that.
    A long time ago, when I still hadn't visited Bulgaria, I was aware of all the rivalry between Macedonians and Bulgarians regarding this issue.
    However, I always sided with the Bulgarians on this particular matter. I thought the Macedonians were just talking rubbish, fed to them by Serb-Communist propaganda. I would see and hear Bulgarians say "come to Bulgaria and you'll see they'll call themselves Bulgarians!", and thought this to be true.
    When I came to Bulgaria (Sofia) for the first time, I was surprised to find Pirin Macedonians, who uncompromisingly declared themselves to be speaking Macedonian.
    Because of my skepsis, I always tried to get reaffirmations out of them, which were in turn given to me: "Yes, I speak Macedonian, not Bulgarian".
    On a side note though, most of the time they also say: "but Macedonian and Bulgarian are the same".
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    Erm, krevet is actually a loanword from Ottoman Turkish, and to be even more precise, it got there from Greek. You sure it entered Macedonian via Serbian and that it isn't a borrowing Macedonian and Serbian share?
    I'm quite sure that Krevet, regardless of it's origin, came to Macedonian through Serbian.

    Any scholar who has profound knowledge of this subject may feel free to correct me.
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    We don't have that big a difference between the standard language used on television and everyday speech. There definitely are differences but they are mainly restricted to ones of pronunciation.
    When I hear Shopski/Pirin Macedonian, the differences with the literary language are more profound than just mere pronunciation. ;-)

    We have and use the word "креват". In some cases it is preferred over "легло" as in "креватна гимнастика".
    I've never heard a Bulgarian say it, I'm sorry.
    Anyway, the point being, was that the words used on Macedonian TV are sometimes completely outlandish to the people (at least to me), and hence the language used on the Macedonian TV can't be used for comparison just like that.
     

    Arath

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    When I hear Shopski/Pirin Macedonian, the differences with the literary language are more profound than just mere pronunciation. ;-)

    What I mean to say is that in Bulgaria we have much more dialect levelling than in Macedonia and the other countries of former Yugoslavia. While it is true that there are people speaking in their original dialect, their numbers are diminishing and such people are very likely to be considered extremely uneducated. In my personal experience I have never heard people below the age of 60 use h-dropping, despite the fact that it is prevalent in most dialects, never heard anyone say "сон", "пат", "пут", "со", "во". I have heard people say "мъжо" and "гъзо" but, as I said, that's very uneducated speech.

    Anyway, the point being, was that the words used on Macedonian TV are sometimes completely outlandish to the people (at least to me), and hence the language used on the Macedonian TV can't be used for comparison just like that.

    It is highly unlikely that a word used on National TV would sound outlandish to a native Bulgarian speaker, unless it's some fancy medical, political or scientific term.
     

    iobyo

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    Bog Svarog said:
    Anyway, the point being, was that the words used on Macedonian TV are sometimes completely outlandish to the people (at least to me), and hence the language used on the Macedonian TV can't be used for comparison just like that.

    Naturally, I'd like to add my two cents in this thread. For now I'll just say that Standard Macedonian doesn't sound the least bit 'outlandish' to anyone living in the Republic of Macedonia because it's the language variety we use in every non-intimate situation. Please don't misinterpret me as I don't wish to sound rude but perhaps, as someone does not live in Macedonia, you should refrain from making such comments.
     
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    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    Naturally, I'd like to add my two cents in this thread.
    I was expecting you. Welcome! :)

    For now I'll just say that Standard Macedonian doesn't sound the least bit 'outlandish' to anyone living in the Republic of Macedonia because it's the language variety we use in every non-intimate situation.
    What are these non-intimate situations that you speak of? Discussions in parliament? Not anything that's important for my everyday life banalities, that I can be sure of.

    I go shopping for groceries - I talk Skopian
    I get in a taxi - I talk Skopian
    I go talk with a friend/relative - I talk Skopian
    I hear my neighbours talk - They talk Skopian
    I go out - the barman talks Skopian to me - I order in Skopian likewise
    I meet a girl - I talk Skopian to her
    I take the taxi back home - I talk Skopian
    Please do tell me: when did I use "Standard language" in my day?
    By definition, if I never use it, and never have to, then it sounds outlandish to me.

    I happen to be in the situation where roughly 30% of my country's population lives in my city, and economically/status-wise speaking, Skopje = Macedonia, and Macedonia = Skopje.
    Everybody understands me, wherever I go, and I do not feel any urge to use "literary" language when I speak.
    Dare to come to Skopje and say something like "колку чини на нејата мајка да и купам нови обувки и велоципед или само легло. , ", and I will burst out in laughing. If this doesn't happen, I'll buy you a beer (Skopsko ofcourse).


    Please don't misinterpret me as I don't wish to sound rude but perhaps, as someone does not live in Macedonia, you should refrain from making such comments.
    Well, you don't sound rude, but you are wrong, in my eyes.
    Ти се извинувам, ама јас живеам во Македонија. Во мој стан, во мој град, кај што и имам работа, кај што и имам Скопски другари и фамилја, со кои си зборам Скопски, и само Скопски. Зборам Скопски кога сум во Велес, Охрид, Струга, Штип, и Куманово, и кај да сум, сите ми викат дека зборам перфектно Македонски. Мислам дека многу добро знам за што правам муабет тука.
    Плус што имам Скопска мајка, со која си зборувам Скопски, и тоа стално.
    Плус што имам роднини, со кои си зборувам преку интернет скоро секој ден.
    Секој жив чоек кој го знам, дали е мој другар, од мојата фамилија, или другар од фамилијата, или обшто на улицата, од било каков статус, збори како и јас што зборам. Не викам дека е 100%, ама скоро сите.

    Јас ако кажувам дека за мене, како прав Скопјанец, многу зборови на телевизијата ми звучат смешни/претенциозни, тогаш тоа си е така. Ако за тебе, како чоек од Битола, тоа не е така, тоа си е друг муабет.

    Исто така ќе кажам дека сите Охриѓани си зборат на Охридски, без врска колку време се во Скопје.
    И за нив е смешно кога слушат на телевизија "он прави" во место "он правит". Муабетот не е дали го разбират, но дали им е чудно/смешно.


    PS: уште ке кажам ова: пред 2 години извадив Македонско државјанство и пасош. Пошто исмислиле нов закон треаше да одам на испит за владеенје Македонски јазик, у МВР беше ако не се лажам.
    Влегов у собата, и имаше едни две бабички унутра. Седнав на астал и треаше да зборам.
    Руките ми летат од лево до десно, а ја лупам, рокам, цепам Скопски бачко, тропам безвези од почеток до крај, ич неам гајле, ме сфаќаш ли шо ти викам?
    Ја па мислев дека треаше целиот муабет сам да го водам, ама едната бабичка после 3-4 минути ми рече дека и беше јасно дека зборам одлично Македонски, и од тогаш она си кажујеше приказни за нејзините роднини у Амстердам.
    Мислам дека тоа беше доста "non intimate", ама си владеев (и тоа доста дугачко), и изгледа дека знам за шо праам муабет.
    Така да, имам пуно право да кажувам дека јазикот на телевизијата ми звучи смешен, без разлика колку месеци у годината сум у Скопје.

    Разбираш ли ме, братко? :)
     
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    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    What I mean to say is that in Bulgaria we have much more dialect levelling than in Macedonia and the other countries of former Yugoslavia. While it is true that there are people speaking in their original dialect, their numbers are diminishing and such people are very likely to be considered extremely uneducated. In my personal experience I have never heard people below the age of 60 use h-dropping, despite the fact that it is prevalent in most dialects, never heard anyone say "сон", "пат", "пут", "со", "во". I have heard people say "мъжо" and "гъзо" but, as I said, that's very uneducated speech.
    I've heard some young girls from Sofia tell me that I'm from "оуандия". So there you have it: both h-dropping and "mrazlivo l" in one. :)

    It is highly unlikely that a word used on National TV would sound outlandish to a native Bulgarian speaker, unless it's some fancy medical, political or scientific term.
    I know an official translator of Bulgarian - SerboCroatian - Russian. Needless to say, this guy has "some" education, and knows his way around Slavic languages.
    He is from Kranevo by the way.
    He often helped me with translating with a girl from Sliven.
    He told me, that he often can not understand what this girl is saying.
    Sliven and Kranevo aren't even that far apart.

    I would dare to say that the dialectical differences in Bulgaria are in no way smaller than in Macedonia.
     

    Arath

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I've heard some young girls from Sofia tell me that I'm from "оуандия". So there you have it: both h-dropping and "mrazlivo l" in one. :)

    I find that really hard to believe. I have never heard h-dropping in young speakers and I just don't believe you. I don't think that the so called "мързеливо л" is a dialect feature because it's present to a greater or lesser degree in every region of Bulgaria, so it's not geographically marked. It's just a marker of informal youth speech.

    I know an official translator of Bulgarian - SerboCroatian - Russian. Needless to say, this guy has "some" education, and knows his way around Slavic languages.
    He is from Kranevo by the way.
    He often helped me with translating with a girl from Sliven.
    He told me, that he often can not understand what this girl is saying.
    Sliven and Kranevo aren't even that far apart.

    I would dare to say that the dialectical differences in Bulgaria are in no way smaller than in Macedonia.

    Some people from Eastern Bulgaria really do have strong accents, but it's just that - an accent, like the difference between American and British pronunciation.

    I don't deny that the original dialects are very different, I'm just saying that they are dying out very fast. The following features are very unlikely to be found in the speech of people below the age of 50 unless they are some hardcore villagers who have never been to school, and who have never left their village:

    h-dropping;
    Pronouncing път and сън as пат, пут, сон and so on;
    Pronouncing the definite article as о: градо;
    Pronouncing поляни, пияни, чаши, шапки as полени, пийени, чеши, шепки;
    Pronouncing леща and вежда as леча, веджа, or лекя, вегя;
    Plural forms ending in "е" instead of "и": пръстене, ръкаве;
    First person plural verb forms ending in -мо - говоримо, давамо;
    First person singular verb forms of the first and second conjugation ending in -м - аз говорим, аз перем, аз говорам, аз перам;
    Using words like яс, я, немой, нога, кошуля, он, она, них;
    Nonstandard stress patterns in nouns: - вóда, мéсо, instead of водá, месó;
    Nonstandard pronunciation of the groups ър/ръ and ъл/лъ: влък, влк, вук, дръво, дрво instead of вълк, дърво;
    Use of three definite articles - мъжъс, женаса, детесо, женисе, мъжън, женана, детено, женине and so on.
    Pronunciation of the future particle ще as че, же, ке, кю, жа;

    As you can see there has been considerable dialect levelling.

    I don't think that any Bulgarian considers the language spoken on national TV as a foreign language.
     
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    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    Some people from Eastern Bulgaria really do have strong accents, but it's just that an accent, like the difference between American and British pronunciation.
    I doubt that you could find two Brits, or two Americans, who live 150km apart, who are unable to understand eachother in their respective dialects.

    I don't deny that the original dialects are very different, I'm just saying that they are dying out very fast.
    I find it nigh impossible that in the long run, through the entire region of Bulgaria, there will be one spoken Bulgarian.
    Languages/dialects always diverge. History has shown this to be true, no matter how much you try to regulate them.

    The following features are very unlikely to be found in the speech of people below the age of 50 unless they are some hardcore villagers who have never been to school, and who have never left their village:

    h-dropping;
    Not so unlikely as you may think. As I've said before, I hear it more often. I do get the impression that this is more part of the Roma-Bulgarian Dialect.
    Using words like яс, я, немой, нога, кошуля, он, она, них;
    I hear them in Pirin Macedonian. Yes in youngsters too.
    Pronunciation of the future particle ще as че, же, ке, кю, жа;
    Well...you have ше in Sofian.
    Also, when my girlfriend went to Petrič, and sat down in a cafe, she was asked "що ке се насъркаш?".
    Apart from this, I once heard a Macedonian girl talk in a Macedonian that was influenced by Bulgarian, and she used че. I'm guessing she picked this up from some Bulgarian dialect (perhaps Blagoevgrad?).

    As you can see there has been considerable dialect levelling.
    I will admit that there is dialect leveling.

    I don't think that any Bulgarian considers the language spoken on national TV as a foreign language.
    Well I consider it a foreign language! :)
    All jokes aside though, I also don't consider the Macedonian on TV foreign at all. Sometimes it can be a bit pretentious and odd though, that's all.
     

    Arath

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I find it nigh impossible that in the long run, through the entire region of Bulgaria, there will be one spoken Bulgarian.
    Languages/dialects always diverge. History has shown this to be true, no matter how much you try to regulate them.
    I agree with you, but that's not what I wanted to say. I mean that the numerous original dialects are merging together and now we have less dialects but they cover larger areas.

    Not so unlikely as you may think. As I've said before, I hear it more often. I do get the impression that this is more part of the Roma-Bulgarian Dialect.
    Most of Bulgaria's Roma population are social outsiders.

    I hear them in Pirin Macedonian. Yes in youngsters too.
    Also, when my girlfriend went to Petrič, and sat down in a cafe, she was asked "що ке се насъркаш?".
    Apart from this, I once heard a Macedonian girl talk in a Macedonian that was influenced by Bulgarian, and she used че. I'm guessing she picked this up from some Bulgarian dialect (perhaps Blagoevgrad?).

    I don't mean to offend anyone but if a Bulgarian speaker uses such dialect vocabulary he or she will most definitely be considered illiterate and will be socially isolated. You can't be successful in mainstream Bulgarian society and speak like that. I strongly doubt that there are many people who actually do, and if there are, they are an exception.

    Well I consider it a foreign language! :)
    All jokes aside though, I also don't consider the Macedonian on TV foreign at all. Sometimes it can be a bit pretentious and odd though, that's all.
    You kind of seem to have a negative attitude towards the standard language on Macedonian TV and you are not very eager to use it on an everyday basis. That's not the case in Bulgaria, we look up to and respect the standard Bulgarian language.
     
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    DarkChild

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I've heard some young girls from Sofia tell me that I'm from "оуандия". So there you have it: both h-dropping and "mrazlivo l" in one. :)

    I think they lied to you when you were told you arrived in Sofia. :D

    EDIT: Oh, if you spoke to Gypsies, that's a completely different story!
     
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    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    Most of Bulgaria's Roma population are social outsiders.
    I don't think much of a linguistic discussion can come out of this, so I have nothing to reply.

    I don't mean to offend anyone but if a Bulgarian speaker uses such dialect vocabulary he or she will most definitely be considered illiterate and will be socially isolated.
    Well, I actually do find that highly offensive, maybe even arrogant. No offence...
    If it were me in that caffe, I would've given the waitress a 20 Leva tip, just for talking to me in her own language.
    I always gets highly annoyed when a Pirin Macedonian talks Bulgarian to me. Or for that matter a true Sofian, who says something like "няма да ходим".
    No really, my skin starts to crawl in those situations. It's like an Englishman who sings in an American accent. :)

    You can't be successful in mainstream Bulgarian society and speak like that. I strongly doubt that there are many people who actually do, and if there are, they are an exception.
    We weren't talking about mainstream Bulgarian society though, but a bar in Petrič.

    EDIT: Hold on, how could I have forgotten this!? What you say is untrue, and can even be scientifically proven (yes I stole that expression from earlier on in this thread). Ever heard of Karolina Gočeva? She has been on Slavi Trifonov's Show, Bulgarian Idol, and does plenty of interviews on Bulgarian TV. Succesful in "Bulgarian mainstream society"? Fact.
    Want to know in what language she speaks? The same one as that waitress in the bar in Petrič. Да да комшијо, и она си го срка кафенцето. ;-)
    She is in no way regarded as illiterate, or being socially isolated, so your whole theory is hereby proven wrong.

    Anyways, my girlfriend speaks in her own dialect - Sofian.
    I copy her dialect word for word, sound for sound, and talk like this to every Bulgarian I encounter.
    Believe you me, I could not care less about those things you say about "being succesful in Bulgarian mainstream society" or "sounding literate".
    It would be prententious beyond words for me, and typical of Balkan culture (trying to elevate your perceived status by pretending to be something you are not, with added faux accent). I don't have such complexes, and feel free and happy with myself because of it.

    Over here in the Netherlands we also have people who stop speaking their own regional language, but all the regional languages (and we have no less than 4) are still living and being used.
    In Macedonia it's no less different.
    In Ohrid they stick to their dialect, and in Strumica they stick to theirs. Even when I meet people from Ohrid in the Netherlands, they use their own dialect, and I'm very happy that they do, to be quite honest.

    The thing that you talk about is quite typical for "our people". I see it all the time in Skopje.
    Immigrant villagers will not talk their own dialect to their children, because they fear that they will be seen as peasants.
    Quite a shame.

    You kind of seem to have a negative attitude towards the standard language on Macedonian TV and you are not very eager to use it on an everyday basis. That's not the case in Bulgaria, we look up to and respect the standard Bulgarian langauge.
    The only "standard language" I'll ever learn is Old Church Slavonic. I simply do not recognize the authority of the fake standard languages in existence today, as they are horribly prejudiced towards one group of people, and are merely a political instrument.
    Yes, I have a highly negative attitude to linguistic imperialism. Everybody should speak his own language, and keep speaking it. Whenever a Sofian speaks Standard Bulgarian to me, I ask him to just speak in his own dialect to me.
    My grandmother spoke the way she spoke as a child, and my mother speaks the same language as she spoke when she was a child, and I speak like her, and I will teach all my children to speak exactly like me.
    Likewise, I will not tolerate my girlfriend not talking Sofian to our children.
    Everytime they'd dare to say something like "вярно" or "рака", I will correct them. 10 times in a row and they have to do the dishes! Oh yes. :)


    The existence of the South Slavic dialect continuum is something admirable, and I feel that it must be preserved throughout the ages.
     
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    Arath

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    The only "standard language" I'll ever learn is Old Church Slavonic. I simply do not recognize the authority of the fake standard languages in existence today, as they are horribly prejudiced towards one group of people, and are merely a political instrument.
    Yes, I have a highly negative attitude to linguistic imperialism. Everybody should speak his own language, and keep speaking it. Whenever a Sofian speaks Standard Bulgarian to me, I ask him to just speak in his own dialect to me.
    My grandmother spoke the way she spoke as a child, and my mother speaks the same language as she spoke when she was a child, and I speak like her, and I will teach all my children to speak exactly like me.
    Likewise, I will not tolerate my girlfriend not talking Sofian to our children.
    Everytime they'd dare to say something like "вярно" or "рака", I will correct them. 10 times in a row and they have to do the dishes! Oh yes. :)


    The existence of the South Slavic dialect continuum is something admirable, and I feel that it must be preserved throughout the ages.

    If people didn't make compromises they wouldn't be able to coexist. It's only natural to accommodate one's idiolect to that of one's interlocutor, otherwise communication would be considerably impaired or even unfeasible. You're taking into account only one of the reasons for the existence of a standard norm. If people all around Bulgaria stuck to their native dialects, we wouldn't be able to understand each other. Some people really do need subtitles.
     
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    DarkChild

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    EDIT: Hold on, how could I have forgotten this!? What you say is untrue, and can even be scientifically proven (yes I stole that expression from earlier on in this thread). Ever heard of Karolina Gočeva? She has been on Slavi Trifonov's Show, Bulgarian Idol, and does plenty of interviews on Bulgarian TV. Succesful in "Bulgarian mainstream society"? Fact.

    Not really, she became known during her participation in a singing competition but after that she's been totally forgotten. Her songs aren't known by most people, her videos can't be seen on Bulgarian channels. So I can't say she's a mainstream name. Of course, when she was giving interviews she was speaking in her own way, and no one expected her to speak Standard Bulgarian because everyone knew she was a foreigner. That waitress from Petrich will not get the same treatment if she decides to speak like she did to you. She herself will never dream of doing that because she knows she will make a fool out of herself.

    By the way, I don't know exactly what Sofia dialect means. There is Shopski in that area but not everyone in Sofia speaks that dialect. In fact, for the majority of Sofia residents Shopski is not a native "language". It is the native dialect of people from towns and villages around Sofia, but not the city itself.
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    If people didn't make compromises they wouldn't be able to coexist. It's only natural to accommodate one's idiolect to that of one's interlocutor, otherwise communication would be considerably impaired or even unfeasible. You're taking into account only one of the reasons for the existence of a standard norm. If people all around Bulgaria stuck to their native dialects, we wouldn't be able to understand each other. Some people really do need subtitles.
    What you say is very true, up to some extent.

    What I'm saying though, is that our three "invented" Standard languages (Serbian/Bosnian, Bulgarian, Macedonian), that became state languages gradually after the dissolvement of the Ottoman empire, are co-responsible for tearing the dialect continuum apart. This is not desirable, if you ask me. Then again, I'm a Yugoslav Slavophile (of the most extreme kind you could think of), so perhaps I'm not objective...sigh.
    Regardless, we could learn much from the Arabic people, who cling on to their biblical language for media/official use, and don't let their personal dialects get swayed too much by it (any Arab please correct me if I'm wrong!). No Arab would have to feel being discriminated against, because the language that he uses for official use is his own language, and the same for every other Arab as well, while he can freely speak his own dialect with his neighbours.

    I remember my first time in Sofia, my conversations would usually go like this:
    "Random question in pseudo-Bulgarian"
    "Ehm....do you speak English?"
    "Да, ама знам и Български..."
    "But I think it's better if we talk in English"
    The conversation is rounded up in English, and is followed by an inquisitive face, with:
    "Ти от Сърбия ли си бе?"
    "Не бе, Македония....?!"
    "Аааа...добре...ама защо говориш на Сръбски?"
    The average Bulgarian definately needed subtitles for me.

    If it were up to me though, all three "standard" languages of Bulgaria, Serbia (including Bosnia and Monte Negro), and Macedonia would be instantly "taken out of service", and replaced by Old Church Slavonic. If not OCS, then Church Slavic, hell even Russian if it must be so.
    If all else fails, I'll even play the "srboman"-card, and advocate Serbian as the lingua franca.

    Something that you may find interesting: my mother (Macedonian) speaks Serbocroatian with Bulgarians. When a Bulgarian tells her that he doesn't speak Serbocroatian, my mother asks if they can speak in English.


    Standard languages? Fine with me, but they must not be instruments in destroying peoples local identity, nor must they be biased by means of prejudice towards politically dominant groups.
    Our standard languages comply with exactly these two things.
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    Not really, she became known during her participation in a singing competition but after that she's been totally forgotten.
    You say "she became known". I also think that she made some money. You thusly are admitting that she had mainstream success; what else could be the meaning of this term?

    Of course, when she was giving interviews she was speaking in her own way, and no one expected her to speak Standard Bulgarian because everyone knew she was a foreigner.
    Don't even go there....don't. You know as well as I do, that every living Bulgarian was thinking to himself "She is a Bulgarian, speaking a Bulgarian dialect" when she was on tv. No Bulgarian would call her a foreigner, but merely a "brainwashed" Bulgarian.
    Besides, she has a Bulgarian passport, so I can even say that she has the Bulgarian nationality.

    That waitress from Petrich will not get the same treatment if she decides to speak like she did to you. She herself will never dream of doing that because she knows she will make a fool out of herself.
    That waitress from Petrič will not get the same treatment, because she has been indoctrinated by the majority of her country, and is fearful of being laughed at, which I find quite shameful and disrespectful.
    I've seen it happen countless times that somebody from say Kumanovo, talks in his own dialect, and the receiver (usually a Skopjanec) yelling "ILLITERATE MONKEY!" at him in return...
    This happens in every country, no matter what culture. One culture becomes dominant, and tells all the other cultures in the country "you peasants should be quiet and behave like us!". It's the same in Macedonia. In Skopje, the favourite curse word is "seljak", which is used for literally anybody that's not from Skopje, by default.
    Kumanovci, Ohridjani, Prilepcani, all "seljaci", who talk "selski".
    In Amsterdam we have the same. Not from Amsterdam? Peasant.

    By the way, I don't know exactly what Sofia dialect means. There is Shopski in that area but not everyone in Sofia speaks that dialect. In fact, for the majority of Sofia residents Shopski is not a native "language". It is the native dialect of people from towns and villages around Sofia, but not the city itself.
    Come and have a chat with my girlfriend. I can assure you that it's not the same as what's heard on the TV, and also not the same as the Shopski spoken around Sofia.


    If there's anything that makes me proud, it's a Skopian talking hardcore Skopian while being interviewed for the news.
    These people deserve a medal and statue.
     

    DarkChild

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    You say "she became known". I also think that she made some money. You thusly are admitting that she had mainstream success; what else could be the meaning of this term?
    She had as much success as any random person on Big Brother and was similarly forgotten not long after.

    Don't even go there....don't. You know as well as I do, that every living Bulgarian was thinking to himself "She is a Bulgarian, speaking a Bulgarian dialect" when she was on tv. No Bulgarian would call her a foreigner, but merely a "brainwashed" Bulgarian.
    Besides, she has a Bulgarian passport, so I can even say that she has the Bulgarian nationality.
    I will not have this discussion. All I'm saying is that she had an excuse for speaking the way she was. Petrich waitress doesn't. After all, if you're on TV, you should speak so that all people, not only those in your village, can understand you.
     

    DarkChild

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    If it were up to me though, all three "standard" languages of Bulgaria, Serbia (including Bosnia and Monte Negro), and Macedonia would be instantly "taken out of service", and replaced by Old Church Slavonic. If not OCS, then Church Slavic, hell even Russian if it must be so.
    If all else fails, I'll even play the "srboman"-card, and advocate Serbian as the lingua franca.
    Now you have really made me laugh.:D
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    Now you have really made me laugh.:D
    You shouldn't laugh; you know your country played the russophile-card for over a century, as is still evidenced by your language. :D

    All I'm saying is that she had an excuse for speaking the way she was. Petrich waitress doesn't. After all, if you're on TV, you should speak so that all people, not only those in your village, can understand you.
    Getting into this too much would possibly start a massive political debate....let's see if that can be prevented.

    The thing that started this discussion was, that I don't classify Pirin Macedonian as Bulgarian, just as I don't classify Shopski as either Bulgarian or Macedonian. That's what this thread is about after all - the dialect/language classifications in the South Slavic dialect continuum.

    It should come as no surprise to you, that I would object to said waitress talking "standard Bulgarian" too much, as it clearly erodes popularity/usage/knowledge of the own language, which can only be a pity. I have met some Pirin Macedonians who giggle at the Macedonian spoken by their fellow townsfolk, and have lost the ability to speak it themselves, in favour of standard Bulgarian - this is an utter shame and nothing less.
    Likewise, you shouldn't be surprised by me calling the "Bulgarization" of the Sofia vernacular in the 19th century "the great Shop tragedy".
     
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    iobyo

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    Bog Svarog said:
    I go shopping for groceries - I talk Skopian

    At the marketplace, sure; most of the sellers are from rural areas and lesser educated anyway (not to rip on the farmers, I'm from such family myself). But go to one of the modern supermarkets and you won't be addressed in anything but the best Standard Macedonian that the person knows. In Čair, the ethnic Albanian checkout girls even speak Macedonian to the ethnic Albanian customers.

    Bog Svarog said:
    I get in a taxi - I talk Skopian

    Perhaps. You ought to still 'correct' your speech a little. Being strangers, you'd address the driver in the plural and avoid using too many localisms. It's all about image: we don't want strangers thinking we're uncouth.

    Bog Svarog said:
    I go talk with a friend/relative - I talk Skopian
    I hear my neighbours talk - They talk Skopian

    Naturally.

    Bog Svarog said:
    I go out - the barman talks Skopian to me - I order in Skopian likewise

    This is where gender might play a role. The bars and pubs are traditionally the men's domain: it's a place where you go to unwind, speak your mind and be at ease. Any other time, the barman recognizes me and greats me with an expletive (I'm sure the other Balkanians know exactly what I mean). When I'm with a girl, however, the tone changes and we speak in a more refined, lesser dialectal manner.

    Bog Svarog said:
    Please do tell me: when did I use "Standard language" in my day?

    Whenever you write something. That's the very purpose of a standard language.

    Bog Svarog said:
    By definition, if I never use it, and never have to, then it sounds outlandish to me.

    You've never had to use the standard in Macedonia?

    Bog Svarog said:
    Everybody understands me, wherever I go, and I do not feel any urge to use "literary" language when I speak.

    I'm telling you, most people would feel uncomfortable or even look down upon you if you don't use it in the correct situations. There's a lot of respect for the standard language and for those that know when and how to use it, but twice as much ridicule for those that don't.

    Bog Svarog said:
    колку чини на нејата мајка да и купам нови обувки и велоципед или само легло.

    „Обувка“ не е исто што и „чевел“, односно „легло“ и „кревет“.

    Bog Svarog said:
    многу зборови на телевизијата ми звучат смешни/претенциозни

    Едно е нешто да звучи смешно, а друго е да звучи претенциозно. Книжевниот стил секому е помпезен во споредба со колоритниот народен јазик.

    Bog Svarog said:
    И за нив е смешно кога слушат на телевизија "он прави" во место "он правит".

    Никогаш не се говори „он“ на телевизија, освен како лапсус.

    Bog Svarog said:
    Така да, имам пуно право да кажувам дека јазикот на телевизијата ми звучи смешен

    Тоа никој не ти го оспорува, но останува дека на останатите граѓани не им е нималку смешен.

    Bog Svarog said:
    The thing that started this discussion was, that I don't classify Pirin Macedonian as Bulgarian, just as I don't classify Shopski as either Bulgarian or Macedonian.

    It's equally transitional to both sides = continuum.

    Bog Svarog said:
    It should come as no surprise to you, that I would object to said waitress talking "standard Bulgarian" too much

    This is how we are programmed to behave. It would be like demanding a Japanese person not use an honorific.
     
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    DarkChild

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    Getting into this too much would possibly start a massive political debate....let's see if that can be prevented.

    The thing that started this discussion was, that I don't classify Pirin Macedonian as Bulgarian, just as I don't classify Shopski as either Bulgarian or Macedonian. That's what this thread is about after all - the dialect/language classifications in the South Slavic dialect continuum.

    It should come as no surprise to you, that I would object to said waitress talking "standard Bulgarian" too much, as it clearly erodes popularity/usage/knowledge of the own language, which can only be a pity. I have met some Pirin Macedonians who giggle at the Macedonian spoken by their fellow townsfolk, and have lost the ability to speak it themselves, in favour of standard Bulgarian - this is an utter shame and nothing less.
    Likewise, you shouldn't be surprised by me calling the "Bulgarization" of the Sofia vernacular in the 19th century "the great Shop tragedy".
    I'm curious as to what you classify as Bulgarian. Because apparently, according to you, we speak some Russified Macedonian. Oh wait, that's what nationalist Macedonians claim.
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    At the marketplace, sure; most of the sellers are from rural areas and lesser educated anyway (not to rip on the farmers, I'm from such family myself). But go to one of the modern supermarkets and you won't be addressed in anything but the best Standard Macedonian that the person knows. In Čair, the ethnic Albanian checkout girls even speak Macedonian to the ethnic Albanian customers.
    You must be delirious....Albanians speaking Macedonian to eachother in public? Tape this for me please.
    The only time they'll ever do this, is when they are surrounded by Macedonians, and don't want to create a hostile atmosphere. It will always be pressured and awkward sounding.
    I live right next to the Ramstore mall. If I say that I do not get adressed in anything but the best Standard Macedonian that the person knows, then you can hold this statement to be 100% true. It's not like I'm making this up... In your defence, I will admit that some waiters in "high class" establishments use Standard Macedonian towards me. The funny thing here is that the boss usually talks Skopian with me nevertheless.
    And even though I was raised in Čair, and have been surrounded by Albanian neighbours, I have close to 0 contact with Albanian people, so I can't really comment on how/what they speak in too much detail.

    Perhaps. You ought to still 'correct' your speech a little. Being strangers, you'd address the driver in the plural and avoid using too many localisms. It's all about image: we don't want strangers thinking we're uncouth.
    Hahaha! Oh please, you can not, for the love of god, be serious? Are you? :)
    The average taxi driver is THE BEST EXAMPLE of a Skopian talking person. You really couldn't have come up with a better example!
    Besides, the average taxi driver conversational material revolves around quite uncouth matters, to say the very least...
    I take the taxi up to 4 times a day in Skopje, so believe you me, I know what I'm talking about.

    This is where gender might play a role. The bars and pubs are traditionally the men's domain: it's a place where you go to unwind, speak your mind and be at ease. Any other time, the barman recognizes me and greats me with an expletive (I'm sure the other Balkanians know exactly what I mean). When I'm with a girl, however, the tone changes and we speak in a more refined, lesser dialectal manner.
    It's right the other way around. Your typical (balkan) male will try to show off towards the other males when he is in the presence of a female, so he will act especially more "mangupski".
    The only thing that would change is the use of certain expletives that are derogatory towards women. This however, is a worldwide phenomena, and has nothing to do with any dialects whatsoever.

    Whenever you write something. That's the very purpose of a standard language.
    I don't write anything to Macedonians in everyday life.
    The only time when I ever have to write something in Macedonian, is when I'm writing with another Skopian.
    I write strictly Skopian, and usually get written Skopian back.
    This forum is quite the exception.

    You've never had to use the standard in Macedonia?
    When I had to apply for my citizenship, I had to write a biography.
    Well then, this one time in nearly 30 years, I wouldn't call that exactly regularly.

    I'm telling you, most people would feel uncomfortable or even look down upon you if you don't use it in the correct situations. There's a lot of respect for the standard language and for those that know when and how to use it, but twice as much ridicule for those that don't.
    I think that you are just projecting your own hopes onto the reality.
    I find your statement to be mostly true for immigrant villagers who want to show that they are "high class" people now that they've moved into the city.
    It's interesting that I have never been in a situation where I was looked down upon in any way.
    As I've said before: countless times, over and over again, people tell me how good my Macedonian sounds.
    Sometimes people don't even believe me that I was mostly raised in the Netherlands, since most emigrants usually speak hilariously bad Macedonian (odev so karot do partito so moite friendovi, you know what people I'm talking about).
    And I do stick to my dialect vigilantly, so what you are saying just can't be right.

    „Обувка“ не е исто што и „чевел“, односно „легло“ и „кревет“.
    Кондура е се живо што слагам на нога, освен патика. А не сум баш по чизми. Така да обувка може да се користи кога јас би користел кондура. Ќе сечам глава кога некој Скопјанец ќе ми рече дека купил обувки.
    Легло имам чуено точно еден пат, што ти е еден пат во цел живот мој. Жената зборуваше за кревет, затошто гледав да си купам нов кревет за новиот стан. Нема грешка во тоа.

    Едно е нешто да звучи смешно, а друго е да звучи претенциозно. Книжевниот стил секому е помпезен во споредба со колоритниот народен јазик.
    Можеби не си ме разбрал. Јас викам дека ми е многу претенциозно кога еден Скопјанец зборејќи со друг Скопјанец користува книжевен стил.
    Книжевниот стил нека си биде за во политиката, или за националните вести, а не за граѓани меѓу себе.
    Не гледам никаква причина за тоа, освен ако е за да покажат дека се "високи". Тоа ако не е претенциозно, мене нека ме фрлат во Вардар.
    Пак ќе кажам дека кога сум на Македонски слави во Холандија, сите таму ми цепат на локални диалекти.
    Чоекот што вика за разликата меѓу Македонија и Бугарија стој: кај нас луѓето многу строго се држат за родниот диалект, и тоа дури до највисокиот социален степен, во јавност.

    "Никогаш не се говори „он“ на телевизија, освен како лапсус."
    И сега ми даваш потврда дека јазикот на телевизија за мене ми звучи чуден.
    Да умрам ако "он" не се кажува барем по 50 пати на ден.

    Тоа никој не ти го оспорува, но останува дека на останатите граѓани не им е нималку смешен.
    Муабетот ми беше дека за мене ми звучи чудно и смешно, и за други Скопјани сугурно ќе звучи чудно ако јас ќе им зборам така.

    It's equally transitional to both sides = continuum.
    Yes, that's what I've been saying.
    The common viewpoints in Bulgaria and Macedonia are quite absolutistic though, and don't follow any proper borders, except the political ones.
    This is common for the entire Balkans ofcourse.

    This is how we are programmed to behave. It would be like demanding a Japanese person not use an honorific.
    That is quite a leap you are making...
    The situation here is that a majority of Bulgarians is using its political weight in order to change the language of subordinate peoples, and these peoples are just complying, giving up their language without protest.
    The same is happening in the Netherlands, where non-Hollandic people are replacing their own language by Hollandic. And even though I'm Hollandic myself; I want them to keep their own language.
    It's just a pitiful development in my eyes.
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    I'm curious as to what you classify as Bulgarian.
    Anything that can not be classified as either Shop/Torlak or Macedonian.
    To me they speak Bulgarian in Sofia, and definately in Varna, and Burgas, and in Plovdiv.
    The Yat-border is a somewhat good guideline, with Sofia being the obvious exception.
    But as has been said before: dialects are dying out. I think that I can say only Bulgarian is spoken in Bulgaria, before the time my beard turns grey.

    Because apparently, according to you, we speak some Russified Macedonian. Oh wait, that's what nationalist Macedonians claim.
    Bulgarian has a very Russian feel to me, regardless of the loanwords. When I hear some people from the most northeastern villages talk, I sometimes get the feeling I'm just listening to a Russian patois with Bulgarian.

    Macedonian can only mean two things to me:
    1) an ancient Hellenic language, died out.
    2) a modern Slavic language, which corresponds to the western variety of Eastern South Slavic. I happen to speak this one.
    I fail to see where the "nationalist Macedonian" claim is.
     

    iobyo

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    Pronouncing поляни, пияни, чаши, шапки as полени, пийени, чеши, шепки;

    Would you be able to please tell me more about this, Arath? This is how the most elderly of the elderly speak in my village.

    Mods: Maybe my question should be split into a new thread?
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch
    Would you be able to please tell me more about this, Arath? This is how the most elderly of the elderly speak in my village.

    Mods: Maybe my question should be split into a new thread?
    Мислам дека ова е добар пример од поентата ми.
    Ти не би рекол ли дека младите кај вас не го користат стариот диалект, заради влијае на книжевниот стил?
     

    Arath

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    Would you be able to please tell me more about this, Arath? This is how the most elderly of the elderly speak in my village.

    Mods: Maybe my question should be split into a new thread?
    This a feature of the Northeastern Bulgarian dialects, the so-called Balkan dialects. In them, the old yat vowel is pronounced either as "я", or "е", if the following syllable contains "е" or "и": голям, големи, бял, бели.

    Due to analogy this pronunciation spread to every stressed я vowel or а, after ж, ч, ш, even if etymologically it wasn't the original yat vowel. So in these dialects they say:

    поляна, but полени
    пиян, but пийени
    Стоян, but Стойене
    жаба, but жеби
    чаша, but чеши
    шапка, but шепки.

    I have never heard any living person in Bulgaria use this pronunciation. I learned about it from Stoikov's dialect atlas.
     

    DarkChild

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    This a feature of the Northeastern Bulgarian dialects, the so-called Balkan dialects. In them, the old yat vowel is pronounced either as "я", or "е", if the following syllable contains "е" or "и": голям, големи, бял, бели.

    Due to analogy this pronunciation spread to every stressed я vowel or а, after ж, ч, ш, even if etymologically it wasn't the original yat vowel. So in these dialects they say:

    поляна, but полени
    пиян, but пийени
    Стоян, but Стойене
    жаба, but жеби
    чаша, but чеши
    шапка, but шепки.

    I have never heard any living person in Bulgaria use this pronunciation. I learned about it from Stoikov's dialect atlas.
    I think some old people still talk like that.
     

    iobyo

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    This a feature of the Northeastern Bulgarian dialects, the so-called Balkan dialects. In them, the old yat vowel is pronounced either as "я", or "е", if the following syllable contains "е" or "и": голям, големи, бял, бели.

    Due to analogy this pronunciation spread to every stressed я vowel or а, after ж, ч, ш, even if etymologically it wasn't the original yat vowel. So in these dialects they say:

    поляна, but полени
    пиян, but пийени
    Стоян, but Стойене
    жаба, but жеби
    чаша, but чеши
    шапка, but шепки.

    I have never heard any living person in Bulgaria use this pronunciation. I learned about it from Stoikov's dialect atlas.

    I see. Thank you.

    This a little different to how the elderly (70+) speak back home where it's both чеша and чеши.

    If it's of any interest to you, I stumbled across this:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=yaBiAAAAMAAJ&q said:
    На тој ареал не се ретки примери со прегласено |а| во |е| зад (историски) меките консонанти, сп: јäска, јäгне, јерем (Бобошчица), јесен, воденичéр, чеша, жер (Нестрам) и др.

    Мислам дека ова е добар пример од поентата ми.
    Ти не би рекол ли дека младите кај вас не го користат стариот диалект, заради влијае на книжевниот стил?

    The young people still do speak the original dialect, just a few features (such as the one above) have disappeared. I'm guessing it may have become stigmatized as even today when we want to act as a simpleton when joking, we'd speak like this. Of course, general dialect leveling through mass education and so forth also would have played a role.
     
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    yael*

    Senior Member
    Serbian
    Hi guys! :)

    Very, very interesting discussion! I enjoyed so much reading it. I don't know anything about Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects to the extent that I often confuse these two languages (I candistinguish them only when written). And I thought that šopski was a dialect of Serbian... I have checked and I know now that I was wrong, but unfortunatelly, I don't know much of Serbian dialects neither. I would love to read a nice discussion about the dialects in BCS too, hopefully this topic will expand westwards... :)
    I have one question (and it's a bit OT, sorry) - Bog Svarog's story about the citizenship application was interesting and I could understand it easily, but there was this word: "муабет", which was totally new to me. Sounds like a turcism, or orientalism anyway. It is translated as "chat", but I would like to know is it just a slang word or it is used in the formal language? I have never heard it in any BCS dialect, which is a bit strange, especially if it's really a turcism.

    Thank you!

    Cheers.

     

    iobyo

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    I have one question (and it's a bit OT, sorry) - Bog Svarog's story about the citizenship application was interesting and I could understand it easily, but there was this word: "муабет", which was totally new to me. Sounds like a turcism, or orientalism anyway. It is translated as "chat", but I would like to know is it just a slang word or it is used in the formal language? I have never heard it in any BCS dialect, which is a bit strange, especially if it's really a turcism.

    Муабетење is sort of like BCS ćaskanje but used more broadly, so муабет could be synonymous with говор, збор (= reč), etc. in a given context. It was loaned from Turkish which in turn loaned it from Arabic, if I remember correctly. It is extremely common in everyday language but its use in written texts would be somewhat limited and, of course, avoided altogether in the most formal of texts. I'm guessing BCS might, at least as an archaism, have something like *muhabet.
     

    Bog Svarog

    Member
    Macedonian, Dutch

    Поштовање брате! :)

    Very, very interesting discussion! I enjoyed so much reading it. I don't know anything about Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects to the extent that I often confuse these two languages (I candistinguish them only when written).
    The average Chinese person would not even be able to distinguish Bulgarian from Slovenian.

    And I thought that šopski was a dialect of Serbian...
    Every nationalist of either Serbia, Bulgaria, or Macedonia, will claim that it's a dialect of his respective language.
    I have always called it an independant transitional language.

    I don't know much of Serbian dialects neither.
    In Macedonia I once watched a Serbian Torlak tv channel. The show that was on was about an old woman with supposed psychic powers who would advise the viewers about everyday issues (she was dressed as a gypsy to make her look more authentic). It was hilarious beyond words for me... At first I thought it was some sort of comedy show, where the punch line was the mixing of Macedonian and Serbian.
    If I remember correctly, she used svite instead of svi/site. I still sometimes say svite myself, as a joke. :)

    I would love to read a nice discussion about the dialects in BCS too, hopefully this topic will expand westwards... :)
    Same here. Especially Torlak. I'll be quite grateful if anybody could write some examples of it.

    I have one question (and it's a bit OT, sorry) - Bog Svarog's story about the citizenship application was interesting and I could understand it easily, but there was this word: "муабет", which was totally new to me. Sounds like a turcism, or orientalism anyway. It is translated as "chat", but I would like to know is it just a slang word or it is used in the formal language? I have never heard it in any BCS dialect, which is a bit strange, especially if it's really a turcism.
    Over in Macedonia we are quite deep into using Turkisms.
    I myself am even an extremity compared to most people, and can sometimes use Turkish words while there is a very easy and widespread Macedonian word available (or a Serbian/Latin one).
    Kasapnica (from Turkish Kasab) for mesarnica
    Likewise, I'll mostly use ama while no would be viable.
    Saat instead of čas/časovnik/časot
    Kale instead of tvrdina
    Ćorš/ćuš/
    čoš instead of agol/ivica
    Čaršija instead of trgovski centar (not synonymous perse though)
    In contrast, I will never say čifte, but instead use par.
    And the list goes on and on and on.....


    Муабетење is sort of like BCS ćaskanje but used more broadly, so муабет could be synonymous with говор, збор (= reč), etc. in a given context. It was loaned from Turkish which in turn loaned it from Arabic, if I remember correctly.
    As far as can be read on the internet, it's supposed to be from Turkish muhabbet, which means "excited small talk", while the original Arabic meaning is "rich and famous". The original Arabic meaning makes it understandable how Muhabbet is also used as a Turkish first name.
    All quite easy to google ofcourse... :)
    I'm guessing it stems from haber (talk), but could be wrong about that.

    It is extremely common in everyday language but its use in written texts would be somewhat limited and, of course, avoided altogether in the most formal of texts.
    Yes, even I won't use it when filling in some document for the government or something along that line.
    That should really mean something... ;-)

    I'm guessing BCS might, at least as an archaism, have something like *muhabet.
    I wouldn't be surprised if it's quite common amongst the Bosniaks. They are known to have a "very" positive opinion about anything Turkish.
     
    Last edited:

    Arath

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I think that one of the main reasons that here in Bulgaria we have more dialect levelling is that on our Television we hear almost exclusively Bulgarian speech. All of the foreign TV shows, such as House MD, Grey's Anatomy, all sitcoms, soap operas etc., are dubbed. And it has been like that for quite a while, for as long as I can remember actually. I don't think that's the case in Serbia and Macedonia, where even soap operas are subtitled. I can't imagine a soap opera on Bulgarian TV with subtitles, even the poorest cable TV channel wouldn't broadcast such a thing. The people who dub these shows are voice actors trained in standard Bulgarian. The only programmes using subtitles are feature films (and not all of them). A few years ago they used to air one movie a day, at 20:00 usually, and a few more at weekends. Now, they do that only on weekends, it's very difficult to find a subtitled programme on weekdays.


    Over in Macedonia we are quite deep into using Turkisms.
    I myself am even an extremity compared to most people, and can sometimes use Turkish words while there is a very easy and widespread Macedonian word available (or a Serbian/Latin one).
    Kasapnica (from Turkish Kasab) for mesarnica
    Likewise, I'll mostly use ama while no would be viable.
    Saat instead of čas/časovnik/časot
    Kale instead of tvrdina
    Ćorš/ćuš/
    čoš instead of agol/ivica
    Čaršija instead of trgovski centar (not synonymous perse though)
    In contrast, I will never say čifte, but instead use par.
    And the list goes on and on and on.....

    Citizens of Macedonia definitely use more Turkish words than citizens of Bulgaria. Nowadays, many of the Turkish words are old-fashioned and used primarily by the older generation.

    We do have касапница, but it also has the meaning of "massacre, carnage", unlike месарница.
    We use ама, mostly colloquially, and I think it has a slightly different meaning than но.
    Саат,
    is not in wide usage at all, I've encountered it only on Macedonian TV, otherwise I wouldn't know what it means.
    I know what кале and мухабет mean, but they are definitely old-fashioned.
    Чаршия is not equivalent to търговски център, but we do use it.
    The word чифт is not even colloquial, it's the standard word for a pair of something.
    Барем is a word used by my grandparents, but not by me or my parents. We use поне in stead.
     
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