such principles <as> add something

suspection111

New Member
Chinese
Hello. I happen to read a sentence which goes like this:For this purpose, we must avail ourselves of such principles as add something to the original conception--something not identical with, nor contained in it...There's one thing in this sentence I don't quite understand: Why is "as" followed by a bare infinitive as I'm not a native speaker and have never seen "as" used this way? In my personal opinion, "as" in this sentence can be interpreted in two ways: "so as to", or linked to "such" therefore the start of an illustration.Which one is right, or are both of my interpretations wrong? Could somebody help analyze this sentence? Thanks a million.
 
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  • Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    Why is "as" followed by a bare infinitive
    I think it is a plural form (e.g., "are" vs. singular "is") rather than a bare infinitive (e.g., "be"). You may encounter examples in which "as" is followed by a singular verb, for instance, "The law imputes to the reasonable man such knowledge as is common."
    In my personal opinion, "as" in this sentence can be interpreted in two ways: "so as to", or linked to "such" therefore the start of an illustration.
    My interpretation: as = that ==> "For this purpose, we must avail ourselves of such principles as (= that) add something to the original conception."
    Utterances like "Those as (= that, who) want to can come with me" supposedly can be heard in the Upper Southern U.S. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/As).
     
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    velisarius

    Senior Member
    British English (Sussex)
    "For this purpose, we must avail ourselves of such principles as add something to the original conception--something not identical with, nor contained in it..."

    It seems this is a quotation from a translation of Immanuel Kant's The Critique Of Pure Reason.

    When you quote text it's important that you give the source, which would alert members to the fact that this is not contemporary English.

    "Such priciples as add something" - the kind of principles that add something...
     

    suspection111

    New Member
    Chinese
    Thank you for reminding me of this very important fact, velisarius. I'll keep it in mind. And I also want to thank Skatinginbc for your detailed explanation. It helps me a lot.
     

    goldencypress

    Senior Member
    India - Malayalam
    Would it be correct to say " such principles THAT add something etc. That's can such .....that be used in place of such .....as
     

    velisarius

    Senior Member
    British English (Sussex)
    No, in this kind of expression, which can still be used in formal writing, it's "such...as".

    "The rules are in force until such a time as the directors shall see fit to change them."
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    Would it be correct to say " such principles THAT add something etc. That's can such .....that be used in place of such .....as
    The Cambridge Edition of the Works of Immanuel: Kant Critique of Pure Reason, translated by Paul Guyer and Allen W. Wood (1998), Cambridge University Press: "to this end we must make use of such principles that add something to the given concepts that was not contained in them" (p. 146)
    No, in this kind of expression, which can still be used in formal writing, it's "such...as". "The rules are in force until such a time as the directors shall see fit to change them."
    Well, in your example, "as" cannot be replaced with "that" because it means "when" here.
    Anyway, "as" can serve as a relative pronoun, meaning "that", "when", "who", "which", and so forth, depending on the context.
     

    goldencypress

    Senior Member
    India - Malayalam
    Skatinginbc,
    I'm a little confused.
    The quote from the original questioner was ":For this purpose, we must avail ourselves of such principles as add something to the original conception"

    My question was, would it be correct if I slightly modified it as ":For this purpose, we must avail ourselves of such principles THAT add something to the original conception

    From the sentence you have quoted (
    The Cambridge Edition of the Works of Immanuel: Kant Critique of Pure Reason, translated by Paul Guyer and Allen W. Wood (1998), Cambridge University Press: "to this end we must make use of such principles that add something to the given concepts that was not contained in them" (p. 146) I would assume yes, it would be correct.

    Would you care to comment. Thanks in advance.
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    There are two English translations for the same sentence of Kant's: One employs the "such...as"
    construction (translated by J. M. D. Meiklejohn 1829), and the other the "such...that" construction (translated by Guyer & Wood 1998). That tells me that the two constructions are treated as being equivalent or nearly equivalent.
    I don't want to make a clear statement that they are interchangeable because there are other factors (dialectal, diachronic, etc.) that one has to consider.
     
    Hi Skating,
    Just a little demurrer here, as to your *form* of argument. As an aside: it's too bad the issue of the English sentence has been tied to its being a translation. That said, two translations, I maintain, cannot be used to argue that constituents are 'equivalent or nearly equivalent'. It depends on the translators' understanding of the sentence. For example.

    John 1:1Good News Translation (GNT)
    The Word of Life
    1 In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    --------------

    John 1:1New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
    The Word Became Flesh
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    ===
    Does "was" mean "already existed"? I don't think so. That was the interpretation of the Good News translator; his inference.
    ------
    Leaving aside translation(s) and sticking to the English sentence,

    "For this purpose, we must avail ourselves of such principles as add something to the original conception--something not identical with, nor contained in it..."

    To the question of 'as', I think Velisarius' proposal in post #3 is pretty good.

    "Such priciples as add something" - the kind of principles that add something...
    ==================================================

    There are two English translations for the same sentence of Kant's: One employs the "such...as"
    construction (translated by J. M. D. Meiklejohn 1829), and the other the "such...that" construction (translated by Guyer & Wood 1998). That tells me that the two constructions are treated as being equivalent or nearly equivalent.
    I don't want to make a clear statement that they are interchangeable because there are other factors (dialectal, diachronic, etc.) that one has to consider.

    ===
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    To the question of 'as', I think Velisarius' proposal in post #3 is pretty good.
    I'm confused. I said "as" meant "that" (relative pronoun) in that quote. What's Velisarius' interpretation of "as"? Different from mine?

    With regard to the meaning of "such" in the OP's quote, Velisarius and I do have slightly different views: Velisarius interprets it as "the kind of". I, on the other hand, think "such" refers back to old information (i.e., of the type previously mentioned).

    Let us first look at an example:
    "We observe that in many parts of the world indigenous knowledge is increasingly forgotten and lost forever...We would like our training center to be a space to share such knowledge that is slowly being forgotten." (http://sadhanaforest.org/en/kenya/campus-kenya/training-center/) ==> Here, "such knowledge" refers to "indigenous knowledge".

    Now let's examine the text in discussion:
    "The science of natural philosophy (physics) contains in itself synthetical judgements a priori, as principles...For this purpose, we must avail ourselves of such principles as add something to the original conception."(http://books.google.ca/books?id=hnA...vail ourselves of such principles as"&f=false) ==> Here, "such principles", I believe, refers to "synthetic judgments a priori".

    To those that think "as" cannot be substituted with "that":
    Can you please tell me the difference in meaning between the following two:
    1. We must avail ourselves of such principles as add something...
    2. We must make use of such principles that add something...

    Thanks in advance.
     

    velisarius

    Senior Member
    British English (Sussex)
    The first example you give (sadhanaforest.org) is not very well written, I'm afraid. There are several mistakes in that short piece, so I regard it as a bad example of usage.

    I believe (obviously) that you are wrong in your analysis of the original sentence. :) It seems to me linguistically quite straightforward though I'm not qualified to say whether it's a good translation or whether the version with "that" means the same in this particular text.

    I have still to see a good example, with context, of a phrase like your No.2. At the very least I would say that you need to add a comma -
    "We must make use of such principles, (principles) that add something..." and I'm not sure that it would mean the same thing.
     

    Cagey

    post mod (English Only / Latin)
    English - US
    I would never say "such principles that add something", so I am not well placed to explain it to you.

    However, I disagree with your interpretation of such in:
    For this purpose, we must avail ourselves of such principles as add something to the original conception."

    In this context 'such principles as' points ahead to the description that follows. It does not refer back to "synthetic judgments a priori". In other words, I agree with velisarius.

    (Your other example is a somewhat different use of such, and somewhat awkward. At least the part you have quoted is. Perhaps it is clearer in context.)

    Cross-posted with velisarius. :)
     
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