Swedish: för se renlighet

[kfz2010]

Hej,

From "Brott och Straff":

Vi har tre små barn och Katerina Ivanovna sliter från bittida på morgonen till långt in på natten – hon skurar och tvättar och håller ungarna rena – för se renlighet har hon varit van vid sen barndomen – och allt det där gör hon fast hon är bröstsjuk och lungsiktig, det märker jag ju.

Can an infinitive ("se") directly follow "för"?

Thanks.

 

[AutumnOwl]

Yes, you could call 'för se X' an idiom. The 'se' here isn't about seeing something. The expression 'för se renlighet' could perhaps here be translated as 'she was familiar with the need to keep things clean'. The 'för se X' is about having an ability, or having an understanding, or being used to something. It's also (usually) used as something positive, here Katerina Ivanova does a lot to keep the children and the home clean, even if she's sickly.

 

[Segorian]

In my mind, för se is the straightforward equivalent of ‘for you see’ in English: an expression used to introduce an explanation. It is frequently followed by a comma, in the same way as the English expression is often written “For, you see, …”.

The Swedish Academy dictionary (SAOB) has the following under the verb se, giving för se as the colloquial equivalent of ty se:

The expression is indeed colloquial, but also dated (this part of the dictionary was published in 1965). I don't hear people using it, and only recall having seen it in writing in older books. A quick look at this particular Dostoevsky translation seems to reveal a tendency to use old-fashioned language, perhaps as a way of evoking how people might have spoken in the 19th century. For example, bittida in the passage you quote is not a word people use much nowadays (except occasionally in fixed expressions like från bittida till sent).

So the construction is: för (‘because’, ‘for’) se (‘see’). Of course, it doesn’t necessarily have to be rendered as “for, you see”. The meaning is simply ‘because’ and the choice of words (if translating) depends, as always, on context, style, etc.

 

[pethul]

I am a native Swedish speaker and I perceive the word "se" as an imperative rather than an infintive in the idiom "för se" , a request to the reader to "see" in the sense of understand.

 

[Segorian]

I am a native Swedish speaker and I perceive the word "se" as an imperative rather than an infintive in the idiom "för se" , a request to the reader to "see" in the sense of understand.

Yes, I should have addressed that part of the question. In this construction, se is indeed an imperative.