Swiss German, Bavarian German, Austrian German, and German German

[panjabigator]

How different apart are all the different Germans? Are the dialects mutually intelligible? Do speakers have trouble understanding each other? What version is most of the entertainment in? Learners, do you experience any difficulty with the different dialects? In the case of my language, Spanish, the varieties are not nearly far enough apart for me to have any problems understanding them, so the answer is no (in my opinion) for Spanish.

EDIT: By my language, I mean the language I am learning.

 

[Whodunit]

नमस्ते Panjabi,

good to see you here in the German forum.

How different apart are all the different Germans?

To be honest, I don't know. They are very different from each other regarding pronunciation and accentuation, but the vocabulary is almost the same in all German dialects. The difficult thing could be omissions of letters and different stresses of words.

Are the dialects mutually intelligible?

Absolutely. Everyone from Northern Germany should be able to understand Bavarian, Austrian, and Swiss German to a certain extend. Of course, if a Lower German person speaks in his dialect fluently and a man from Bavaria does the same, they will be having trouble understanding each other. However, normally people make some effort to be understood and to understand.

Do speakers have trouble understanding each other?

Not necessarily. I was able to understand everyone in Switzerland who addressed me and they were able to understand me. But I could not understand a conversation between several speakers of Swiss German.

What version is most of the entertainment in?

What kind of "entertainment" do you mean? The news on TV, radio shows? If so, I can tell you that in every part of the particular dialect the dialect is used on the radio. But on the TV, the news is normally read in "High German" or "Standard German", to be more precise.

I was surprised that, in Switzerland, their news are read in Swiss German and some shows and conversations are hold in "Germany's German".

Learners, do you experience any difficulty with the different dialects?

I'm not a learner of German, but what I can tell you from experience is that if someone who can read, speak and understand Standard German will not be having a hard time communcating with someone who has a strong dialect.

In the case of my language, Spanish, the varieties are not nearly far enough apart for me to have any problems understanding them, so the answer is no (in my opinion) for Spanish.

Interesting, but off-topic.

 

[panjabigator]

Thank you very much! Danke!!

 

[heidita]

I am not so optimistic, I do not understand any kind of dialects.

My Bavarian friend and her husband from Schwaben were once talking and I had to interrupt them asking for "Hochdeutsch". They just laughed and my friend answered, oh , now we have to talk "weird" again.

By the way, why do you say your native language is Spanish?








Ich bin da gar nicht so optimistisch. Ich kann überhaupt keine Dialekte verstehen.

Ich erinnere mich an ein Gespräch zwischen meiner Freundin (Bayern) und deren Mann (Schwabenland). Ich sass nur da und verstand Bahnhof. Bis ich sie darauf hinwies und sie beide bat: Hochdeutsch bitte! Ach, da muss ich ja wieder so komisch sprechen, meinte meine Feundin. Das alles spielte sich in Bayern ab.

 

[panjabigator]

I meant the language I am learning...Spanish. That is why I said that portion after my question about learners.

 

[heidita]

I understood "my language" as a reference to your native language which didn't match your profile. Misunderstanding.

 

[panjabigator]

No problem

 

[gaer]

I am not so optimistic, I do not understand any kind of dialects.

My Bavarian friend and her husband from Schwaben were once talking and I had to interrupt them asking for "Hochdeutsch". They just laughed and my friend answered, oh , now we have to talk "weird" again.

Heidi, years ago there was a German student who came to the US to better his very weak English, and he and I spent a great deal of time together speaking in both German and English, helping each other. He was very easy to understand, but he claimed that when he spoke in his local dialect, people from other parts of Germany could not understand him, and he could not understand people using dialects from other parts of German. He could not, for instance, understand people from Bavaria who spoke in dialect.

I heard him speak with his sister a few times, and when they stopped using standard German, it was like listening to a completely different language.

Gaer

 

[Brioche]

Are the dialects mutually intelligible?
Absolutely. Everyone from Northern Germany should be able to understand Bavarian, Austrian, and Swiss German to a certain extent. Of course, if a Lower German person speaks in his dialect fluently and a man from Bavaria does the same, they will be having trouble understanding each other.

You can't have it both ways! Is it absolutely intelligible or to a certain extent?

I'm not a learner of German, but what I can tell you from experience is that if someone who can read, speak and understand Standard German will not have a hard time communicating with someone who has a strong dialect.

Sorry, but as a person who can read, speak and understand Standard German, I have great difficulty understanding southern dialects.

There is a Swiss program on the radio here, and I can understand just about nothing when the presenters are talking among themselves.

Naturally, speakers of dialect can understand a foreigner who has learned Standard German, as they are exposed to that form of the language in school and through the media. But the foreigner may have extreme difficulty in understanding them.

 

[Whodunit]

You can't have it both ways! Is it absolutely intelligible or to a certain extent?

You are right. But I want to tell you that by "absolutely", I just mean that we can in fact understand other dialects when that person speaks to us - directly. By "to a certain extent", I meant to say that when a person speaks in dialect to another one with the same dialect, it often gets hard to follow their conversation.

Sorry, but as a person who can read, speak and understand Standard German, I have great difficulty understanding southern dialects.

There is a Swiss program on the radio here, and I can understand just about nothing when the presenters are talking among themselves.

Hm, I'm looking forward to reading responses of our other German learners.

Naturally, speakers of dialect can understand a foreigner who has learned Standard German, as they are exposed to that form of the language in school and through the media. But the foreigner may have extreme difficulty in understanding them.

Well, what I can tell you from experience is that I have much trouble with strong British accents and with those spoken in the Southern US. Hence it's almost a walk on the beach to understand dialects from the East Coast.

 

[Jana337]

Hm, I'm looking forward to reading responses of our other German learners.

I agree with Brioche. I could understand/distinguish every single word in Hochdeutsch before I started living in Berlin, but it took several months to get used to the Berliner Dialekt. I do not think I will ever understand Kölsch, and southern dialects are quite incomprehensible as well. I am going to find something in Schwyzerdütsch, just for fun.

EDIT: I could understand it, but just so so.
Here is a webpage with sound files. The same sentence is pronounced by speakers of many German dialects. Unsurprisingly, Niederschlesisch is the easiest for me.

Jana

 

[flame]

In reading/writing there is hardly any difference between various regions because everybody is supposed to write in "high German". Though some special vocabularies of course exist in various regions (food, brands used as synonyms, names of cultural habits, etc.).

Pronounciation is a bigger issue; yes you can hear big differences. As a rule of thumb, the less people could move around some hundred years ago the bigger the difference in local dialects still today. In the mountain areas in the western part of Austria you can distinguish the dialects from different valleys no more than 10km apart (line of sight).

I have been told by a German language teacher (stemming from and living in Scottland) that they have severer difficulties in the "South German" areas because all the audio material they use is sounding like the German they speak in the Hannover area - which is said to be closest to "Hochdeutsch". I kind of share this opinion.

There are some dialects (or rather languages ) like Swiss German or Plattdeutsch that are so far apart from "Hochdeutsch" that you have to learn them like a foreign language if you really want to speak them.

 

[englishman]

I agree with Brioche. I could understand/distinguish every single word in Hochdeutsch before I started living in Berlin, but it took several months to get used to the Berliner Dialekt. I do not think I will ever understand Kölsch, and southern dialects are quite incomprehensible as well. I am going to find something in Schwyzerdütsch, just for fun.

I think few non-native speakers can understand any of the strong regional accents without additional practice.

Many years ago, in Austria, I was in a small hotel somewhere south of Vienna, and one of the employees said something that sounded to me roughly like:

"fristi eh oboktur"

to which I looked blank. She repeated this again, and realising that the silly englishman couldn't understand, switched into Hochdeutsch, and said:

"Frühstück ist ab acht Uhr"

In the Vorarlberg, I seem to recall that I was essentially unable to communicate at all in some places - they seemed either unable or unwilling to use Hochdeutsch.

 

[heidita]

I do not agree with Who stating that you should be able to understand German if it is spoken to you directly. Certainly do not understand any kind of dialect, spoken to me directly or not. I might guess, because I might understand some words, but certainly not a conversation at normal speed.

 

[panjabigator]

Hochdeutch I take it is standard German, the one that is taught in schools?

 

[escobonio]

As a son of a south-austrian (my father is from Kärnten), and having lived some years in North Germany and some time in Vienna, I would say that the differences you can find in the different regional German and Austrian dialects are quite significant. There is more difference between the different German dialects that between the different Spanish varieties. But for me that just makes it cooler, because you have so much different accents in such a "small" country! Studying in Vienna is also quite a good example of this variety of dialects, because students from all around Austria come to the capital to go to the university and once you get used to it you can identify where each one of them comes from just by listening to them talking.

As far as I know, you can divide the German language into Northern German and Southern German, and in this Southern German there is the group of the bavarian dialects (the more eastern dialects) and there is the other group of the "alemannische" dialects (more western dialects).

 

[Paskovich]

[...]and realising that the silly englishman couldn't understand

You´re not silly at all.
I myself had the very same problems when I was in Austria. ^^

 

[heidita]

Yes, Hochdeutsch is standard German. You might want to look into a thread which Bomjules opened here on dialects. I had to get some fellow forers to translate, as I didn't understand half of it.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=145132

 

[englishman]

As a son of a south-austrian (my father is from Kärnten),

As I mentioned above, I seem to recall that the Vorarlberg accents were essentially impossible for a foreigner to understand - is there a significant difference linguistically between this area and the rest of Austria ?

I also seem to recall that people there were less keen to speak Hochdeutsch - is this the case, or am I being unfair to them ?

 

[flame]

As I mentioned above, I seem to recall that the Vorarlberg accents were essentially impossible for a foreigner to understand - is there a significant difference linguistically between this area and the rest of Austria ?

I also seem to recall that people there were less keen to speak Hochdeutsch - is this the case, or am I being unfair to them ?

You are right. The dialect spoken in Vorarlberg contains a lot of elements you find in Swiss German, together with elements from Tyrolese and Bavarian dialects. Some of them hare so hard to understand that Austrian TV chose to subtitle them on their broadcasts.

 

[Whodunit]

I do not agree with Who stating that you should be able to understand German if it is spoken to you directly. Certainly I do not understand any kind of dialect, spoken to me directly or not. I might guess, because I might understand some words, but certainly not a conversation at normal speed.

Not any dialect? Or do you mean "Not every dialect"? I'm surprised that you are native German speaker and can't understand dialects. How long have you lived in Germany?

By the way, I was not referring to a conversation at normal speed, though I can hold one - no matter how fast. I can also hold one in English and French, but definitely not on natives' level. Have you had a look at Janas links? I find them really interesting, especially the sound files with one sentence in all dialects. I had to hear three different dialects (of course, mine excluded!) to understand the complete sentence, since it was off any context.

 

[panjabigator]

This maybe a silly question, but what dialect do the Austrian Hapsburgs speak?

WHat about in Prussia..what is spoken there?

And would you say the dialects from Alsace and Lorraine are too different to understand?

 

[Kajjo]

All German speaking natives can easily communicate with each other if they intend to do so, i.e. the voluntary mutual intelligibility is given without restrictions. Everyone can reduce speed and accent and make himself be understood.

However, if a strong, regional dialect is spoken fast between two speakers of the same dialect, an outsider might not be able even to grasp the meaning, i.e. there is no "eavesdropping" mutual intelligiblity between dialects.

There are some milder dialects, which almost everyone can follow and there are very strong dialects, where only dialect-natives can follow fluently.

Kajjo

 

[flame]

This maybe a silly question, but what dialect do the Austrian Hapsburgs speak?

The dialect (was/is it really a dialect ) spoken by the nobles in the late 19th century, which you can still hear from some (older) people coming from this cultural circle is called "Schönbrunner Deutsch". Schönbrunn was the castle of the Austrian emperors. It can be characterized by a lot of nasal sounds and somewhat stretched a's and e's, and they use a lot of french loan words, too. Try to listen to interviews with Otto Habsburg; he speaks "Schönbrunner Deutsch".
Sometimes I get the feeling that ritzy youngsters of today try to immitate this old sound - but I am not sure.

 

[pickypuck]

One of the teachers I've had (half German) told us that it is usual on TV to put subtitles when a person from Switzerland speaks.

¡Olé!

 

[Whodunit]

One of the teachers I've had (half German) told us that it is usual on TV to put subtitles when a person from Switzerland speaks.

¡Olé!

You are right. The same happens when a farmer with strong Bavarian or Frisian dialect reports something. It is often very hard to guess what that person wants to say, but I think if he were to have a conversation with you, he would make some effort to make himself understood.

 

[pickypuck]

[...] but I think if he were to have a conversation with you, he would make some effort to make himself understood.

Yes, I know! Everybody I've met has spoken to me in Hochdeutsch without any problem... if not I would have been lost ^_^ (Sometimes I am even lost when they do... )

¡Olé!

 

[heidita]

Panjabigator, as I was saying I do not understand any dialect at all. I was raised in the industrial part of Germany, but strangely enough, whereas cities like Köln (only 80 km away) have a strong dialect, which spoken fast I do not understand either, my home town is free of dialects and I have great difficulty even to grasp the meaning of a conversation.

 

[Whodunit]

Panjabigator, as I was saying I do not understand any dialect at all. I was raised in the industrial part of Germany, but strangely enough, whereas cities like Köln (only 80 km away) have a strong dialect, which spoken fast I do not understand either, my home town is free of dialects and I have great difficulty even to grasp the meaning of a conversation.

Is there some part in Germany that is free of dialect?

 

[Brioche]

WHat about in Prussia..what is spoken there?

And would you say the dialects from Alsace and Lorraine are too different to understand?

Prussia no longer exists. It was abolished by the Allies at the end of WW2.

East Prussia was divided between Russia and Poland. The pre-war populations were displaced [putting it nicely] and replaced by Russians and Poles. The Russian part is the Kaliningrad Oblast. Parts of West Prussia were also given to Poland, and the previous population displaced.

I've never heard the dialect of Lothringen, but the bit of dialect of Elsass that I've heard sounded very like Swiss to me.

 

[übermönch]

WHat about in Prussia..what is spoken there?

Polish and Russian. Prussian.

And would you say the dialects from Alsace and Lorraine are too different to understand?

I speak a Frankon dialect in southern Hesse (close to French border) and it is very similar to Yiddish, Luxembourgish and Lorrainish, however the latter two have a different vocabulary, rather borrowing from French than from standard German. Alsacien is different, being related to Swabian/Allemanic (Swiss German).

In general the main dialect groups are very different; as different as different slavic or norse languages. I'd even say they were different languages, unfortunaly almost completely destroyed during the age of nationalism in Germany and Austria.

Hochdeutch I take it is standard German, the one that is taught in schools?

Yes, everyone learns Hochdeutsch/Standard German at school. Hochdeutsch can also refer to the High German dialects which are different from Middle German and Low German dialects.

 

[estrellafugaz]

As I mentioned above, I seem to recall that the Vorarlberg accents were essentially impossible for a foreigner to understand - is there a significant difference linguistically between this area and the rest of Austria ?

I also seem to recall that people there were less keen to speak Hochdeutsch - is this the case, or am I being unfair to them ?

I know I'm quoting something from page 1 here but I just wanted to say: Yeeeeeeeeees! (There is a significant linguistic difference between the accents of Karnten and Vorarlberg.) I should know, I live between them Personally, I don't like the Carinthian dialect, it's really the only one I dislike in Austria - but of course as mentioned before it really depends on where the person comes from. I love the Vorarlbergian dialect, it's really cute though of course one of the most difficult to understand in Austria.

I study in Vienna and it is true, you are going to meet so many students from the different parts that you'll get your share of different dialects. It's something I love about studying in Vienna and since I take on to expressions real easily I have picked up some Vorarlbergian or Upper Austrian expressions from my friends. But then again, when you come to Vienna as an exchange student to learn German it can be difficult. A table full of friends who talk in different varieties of Austrian German and you as the only foreign student ... chances are people won't switch to Standard German, though they all master it, just for you. But that depends on the people, if you're close to them and so on. I know a Spanish guy who learned to speak German very well during his year in Vienna, his friends there are mostly from Vorarlberg though! In the end it all depends on how strong your urge to learn the language is and on the well character of the people you meet and who become your friends. One thing that can apparently make learning German in Vienna quite difficult is that everybody speaks English and a lot of students also speak other foreign languages such as Spanish and want to practise them with you, so you don't really get to use your German.

Oh my god I guess I got really off-topic here. I'm sorry!

I speak a strong dialect, or should I say I speak it when I'm at home. Already in the city I went to secondary school in I speak much more standard language and when I got to Vienna ... well I still use my dialect but since fellow Austrians often don't understand me (which is also due to the fact that I tend to speak very fast and low) I get used to speaking a more general Austrian dialect.

One thing I noticed here in France again is that, yes, you might be able to understand somebody when they talk directly at you (especially if they need something from YOU because then they are almost definitely going to repeat it) but I still find it unpleasant to be with various friends and not understand what they are talking about between them or the jokes they are making. That is getting better with the time, of course, but at first I found it really hard and I can only imagine what people who thought they spoke German very well and go to Austria experience at parties or get-togethers.

One more thing: Somebody said that EVERYONE is able to speak Standard German. With globalization today that might be almost true but before we had television and so on ... well I think that you can still find people high up in the mountains who cannot really communicate in Standard German. I have relatives who can use it when they speak with foreigners, but you notice that they speak very differently - way slower and using less words. You just notice that they are not at ease with it. I was actually raised speaking Standard German but since I made an effort to start speaking my local dialect when I was at secondary school I now feel almost incomfortable when I speak Standard German, just because I never use it. I can speak it, but I don't speak it as fast and fluently as I speak my dialect. I think I'm not the only one in Austria who feels that way!

 

[gaer]

Panjabigator, as I was saying I do not understand any dialect at all. I was raised in the industrial part of Germany, but strangely enough, whereas cities like Köln (only 80 km away) have a strong dialect, which spoken fast I do not understand either, my home town is free of dialects and I have great difficulty even to grasp the meaning of a conversation.

Heidi, if I understand what you are saying, I'm assuming that the language spoken where you grew up was close to or very close to standard German. I've heard that this is so in some areas of Germany.

Although the difference from place to place is more extreme regarding differences in accents and dialects in Germany than in the US—I think this is a reasonable statement—it is also true that in some areas of the US the local "accent" is so close to what you hear on TV that in those areas people are perceived as "having no accent". The standard here is called "Broadcast Standard English". I did not even know that it existed until recently. My speech is very close to this. My family came from the area of the country which is more or less the "model" for this standard.

There are dialects in places in the US and other countries in the world in which English is the mother tongue that I can't understand at all. If people coming from those places make a huge effort to speak very slowly, I might pick up a few words, but it would be very difficult.

I believe the same must be true in Germany. Furhtermore, someone who is born in an area in which the "local German" is very close to standard German and who does not travel much might not be exposed to dialects.

Am I close to understanding you?

Gaer

 

[Whodunit]

Heidi, if I understand what you are saying, I'm assuming that the language spoken where you grew up was close to or very close to standard German. I've heard that this is so in some areas of Germany.

It must be like you said, otherwise standard German would sound like a dialect to Heidita, which should not be the case in any family. Standard German sounds very natural to the majority, whereas the Hamburg dialect sounds like Frisian to people from South Germany.

When I was in Hamburg, I could not understand why it is closer to standard German than any other dialect. It sounds a bit "Northern" to me.

 

[alibaba86]

Personnaly, I do understand dialects from the different parts of Germany and Austria. I think the biggest problem is that people tend to speak to quick as we all do when we use our native language. So words seem to mix together and this makes the dialect even harder to understand. And I also believe that your ears get used to the dialects but this can take time sometimes.

Not all the words are the same in the different countries as for example an tomato is called "Tomate" in Germany and "Paradiser"(not sure of the spelling) in Austria. Or also a rubishbin is called "Muelleimer" in Germany and "Mistkuebel" in Austria. But sometimes different words can be used in a same country to call a same objet such as carrot is called in Germany "Karotte" "Moere" or "Wurzel".

 

[Jana337]

A most interesting discussion about German spoken in the northern part of Germany is now here (in German). Please let's keep this thread a bit more general and English only.

Jana

 

[Gabriele]

Hi,

I once met someone from Hessen, an old man, he was really not able to speak in a way I was able to understand more than "und" or "oder" and something similar.
So I needed someone to "translate" what he said .
Funny after all.

I guess that every strong dialect is a problem for someone from another part of Germany. Depending on the region it is not possible to understand a single word.
Listening to people in the Eifel I felt like being somewhere in China although I am not that bad in understanding dialects. But these people were able to change to something more like High German so that communication was possible.

regards
G.

 

[gaer]

Hi,

I once met someone from Hessen, an old man, he was really not able to speak in a way I was able to understand more than "und" or "oder" and something similar.
So I needed someone to "translate" what he said .
Funny after all.

I guess that every strong dialect is a problem for someone from another part of Germany. Depending on the region it is not possible to understand a single word.
Listening to people in the Eifel I felt like being somewhere in China although I am not that bad in understanding dialects. But these people were able to change to something more like High German so that communication was possible.

regards
G.

I think the imporant point is that many people have made the same point. You can understand people who normally speak in a manner that you can barely understand, if at all, but it takes some effort on their part to "meet you half way". They have to at least try to speak in a way that is more standard than their normal habit.

Gaer

 

[AGATHA2]

As I mentioned above, I seem to recall that the Vorarlberg accents were essentially impossible for a foreigner to understand - is there a significant difference linguistically between this area and the rest of Austria ?

Oh yes, there is a very significant difference between Vorarlberg und the east of Austria. We only understand each other speaking Hochdeutsch. But its not only a linguistical problem

 

[Hutschi]

... They are very different from each other regarding pronunciation and accentuation, but the vocabulary is almost the same in all German dialects. The difficult thing could be omissions of letters and different stresses of words.

Many dialects have an own grammar, and a large amount of own vocabulary, or other meanings of vocabulary.

For example, in the high German dialect, there exits both Frau (Woman), and Weib (Woman, highly pejorative).
In my home dialect, (itzgründisch), "wife" is not pejorative. There are a lot of misunderstanding, caused by this reason.

A colleague mentioned, that her father in law had called her "Weib" - and she was very upset. I asked her, from where he came, whether it was "South Thuringia wood" (südlicher Thüringer Wald), and she was very astonished, because it was right. I just thought, he did not want to upset her, so I guessed the region.

The grammar may be different and cause different usages of the standard language, too.

---

By the way: the standard language is a dialect, only, it is standardized.
A dialect is a language, not just bad language.
Standard German is a kind of saxxony dialect with northern pronunciation.
It was founded in some way by the Bible translation of Martin Luther.
When the low German people learned it, they learned it by using books. So they spoke like they read. In the south, it is other. The standard German is much more different to the local language (if you do not consider low German in the North).

There is a saying, that a linguist once said something like
"A dialect is a language with an armee."

I just wanted to mention, even if you suppose you understand the dialect, maybe you translate wrong. You should everytimes consider the context, and that people usually are friendly.

 

[gaer]

There is a saying, that a linguist once said something like
"A dialect is a language with an armee."

In fact, I believe it started this way:

"A dialect is a language without an army."

You version, I believe, is a very witty reversal of this idea:

"A language is a dialect with an army."

Gaer

 

[jcpjcp]

I have read on the internet that in Germany, the German Dialects are dying out fast. They are spoken just by older (+40) people and in even rural areas younger (-40) generatios speak the standart German only. Is it right ?

 

[berndf]

I have read on the internet that in Germany, the German Dialects are dying out fast. They are spoken just by older (+40) people and in even rural areas younger (-40) generatios speak the standart German only. Is it right ?

In urban areas: Yes. With young, well educated, urban people, it is sometimes even difficult to tell from which part of the country they come.
In rural areas: Depends on the region. In some regions dialects are still going strong but they aren't as thick as they used to be. They changed from practically different languages with their own grammars and vocabularies to more or less standard German with regional colouring, much like dialects in England, if this is a meaningful comparison to you.

 

[jcpjcp]

Thanks for answering. What about Bavaria ? Is it the same for Bavaria? How do people speak in big Bavarian cities such as Munich, Nürnberg, Regensburg, Augsburg ? And how do people speak in larger towns and willages in rural areas of Bavaria ?