table

J

Josh_

Senior Member
the phrontistery
U.S., English
I was wondering if the words مائدة and طاولة are basically interchangeable or if they have different usages? For example, could I just as easily say مائدة السفرة/الطعام as طاولة السفرة/الطعام . It also might be worthwhile to discuss the word منضدة although the difference between this word and the others is clear (I think) as a منضدة is more of a desk or a workbench and not a full sized table, right?
 
    • Hi Josh
    Well:
    • Table = "طاولة" these are identical. It's usefull to recognise that "table" in Italian (which is the nearest to Latin) is: Tavola, and if we know that the letter "V" is interchanged with "W" and is corresponding to the letter "واو" in Arabic, we can gess that the Arabic word and the Latin one have the same origin, (But I don't know which is the origin of the other)
    • The Arabic word "مائدة" is specific for "the table of the feast or the dinner or lanch..". Therefore, no need to say "مائدة السفرة" You can say "طاولة السفرة" or simply "المائدة"
    • The word "منضدة" could simply be a desk or a workbench and not a full sized table, exactly right :)
     
    مكتب can be used to mean "desk" as well as "office". Also, there's the word ماصة (no "shadda"), which usualy means school desk.

    طاولة is the most general term, and it appears from Syrian Bird's answer that it might have been borrowed from another language.

    مائدة is only used for dining tables.
     
    Right. I think the single most important difference is that مائدة is always related to food whereas طاولة can be any kind of table.
     
    Hi All

    It should be remembered, though, that a مائدة does not necessarily have to be a table (as we know it "a flat top supported by four legs") prepared with food, it could simply just be a cloth spread out on the floor prepared with food, which is a custom still in practised in many parts of the Middle East.
     
    It's usefull to recognise that "table" in Italian (which is the nearest to Latin) is: Tavola, and if we know that the letter "V" is interchanged with "W" and is corresponding to the letter "واو" in Arabic, we can gess that the Arabic word and the Latin one have the same origin, (But I don't know which is the origin of the other)
    Click to expand...

    Wouldn't طولة more likely come from طول which means length? Considering that a table is just a long piece of wood (with legs).
     
    Josh_ said:
    I found this in which it is being used in the sense of "the table of negotiations."
    Click to expand...
    I can't help it, but مائدة immediately evokes the image of food in my mind. I would personally never use it in that context, and actually I hadn't come across it until you shared those Google results. I am a lot more familiar with طاولة المفاوضات.
     
    ترابيزة tarabeza Egypt from Greek, ميز mez Gulf from Farsi
    coloquial words for table.
     
    Hi,

    مائدة التفاوض is a metaphor, likening the debate to a feast, the arguments to different foods. Its a common enough expression, with just the right intonation the speaker or writer can make it a sarcasm or a cynical point or just a factual piece of information, depends on the writing or the person talking.
     
    Not sure if this clarifies the origin of طولة, or if it's appropriate to resurrect the thread (if it's not, please split off to a new thread), but I just came across an Amharic word which means a board for carpentry (perhaps something like a workbench or table).

    The word is ጣውላ (Tawla) Ta-waw-Lam.

    Not sure how far back it is attested, but interesting nonetheless that another Semitic language has used the same root for a table of sorts.
     
    I suspect that Gulf "mez" is either the origin of, or comes from, the Spanish word for table, "mesa." Anyone have imperical evidence?
     
    AbdulJabbar said:
    I suspect that Gulf "mez" is either the origin of, or comes from, the Spanish word for table, "mesa." Anyone have imperical evidence?
    Click to expand...

    As was already stated in this thread, it is likely that this word comes from Persian ميز as there is a precedent for Persian loan-words in Gulf Arabic. I don't know how likely it is that there are many Spanish loans in Gulf Arabic.

    If you are curious whether the Spanish and Persian words are cognates, you are welcome to open a thread in Etymology and History of Languages.
     
    Last edited:
    clevermizo said:
    as was already stated in this thread, it is likely that this word comes from persian ميز as there is a precedent for persian loan-words in gulf arabic. I don't know how likely it is that there are many spanish loans in gulf arabic.

    If you are curious whether the spanish and persian words are cognates, you are welcome to open a thread in etymology and history of languages.
    Click to expand...

    أنا أول مرة بحياتي أسمع كلمة ميز يعني طاولة
     
    Masjeen said:
    أنا أول مرة بحياتي أسمع كلمة ميز يعني طاولة
    Click to expand...


    تعني لا تُستخدم هذه الكلمة أبدا أم لا تُستخدم بمعنى "طاولة" ؟

    في الحقيقة لم أسمع هذه الكلمة من قبل، ذكرتها فقط بسبب هذا. وهي كلمة فارسية معناها طاولة أو مائدة، وعندي شك بأن أصلها إسباني كما قال.

     
    لا هي كلمة غير معروفة اطلاقا
    فقط كلمة ميز (شدة على الياء) أي يميز والتمييز
    mayyaza
    وهي من العربية الصحى​

    ليست كلمة أصلا.. ولا تتواجد لا بالعربية ولا باللهجة المحلية mez أما​
     
    هذا غير صحيح، كلمة ميز الفارسية الأصل تستخدم في العراق بمعنى طاولة، إلا ان كلمة طاولة تستخدم أيضا هناك والكلمتان يمكن استبدالهما واحدة بالأخرى - لا علاقة لميز بمعنى طاولة بالجذر العربي م ي ز - بالنسبة للأصل الإسباني، قرأت يوما (منذ ألف عام، ربما!) أن الكلمة بالإضافة إلى بعض الكلمات الإسبانية الأخرى وصلت المنطقة في زمن الاستكشافات التي كانت حينها إسبانيا إحدى الرواد. لا أدري ما صحة هذا لأنني لا أذكر أين قرأته

    هناك أيضا كلمة طبلة الشائعة في العراق بمعنى منضدة صغيرة وهناك أيضا كلمة سكملي، لا أدري ما أصلها
     
    عليك أن تختار الكلمة التي يتفق عليها أغلبية المتحدثين بالعربية، ستكون نافعة لك كمتعلم جديد للعربية. طاولة كلمة شهيرة جداً وعلى كل المستويات. بالنسبة لكلمة "ميز" هي كلمة غير عربية وهي دخيلة حتى وإن استخدمت في بلاد عربية لكن الأهم من ذلك هي غير مُعرّبة، لذلك لا تلقي لها بالاً.
     
    أنا أرد على مسكين الذي أنكر وجود الكلمة في العاميّة. ثم أنني فهمت أننا نتحدث عن مرادفات مختلفة لكلمة طاولة فلا أرى الخطأ في ذكرها ما دامت موجودة
     
    Spanish "mesa" comes from Latin "mensa". Maybe Persian ميز is just a cognate? If not, where would the n come from then?

    Italian tavola comes from Latin "tabula". I remember reading in the list of Arabic borrowings in the apendix of al-Farā’id's dictionary that that Arabic طاولة does come from Italian, and it makes sense as otherwise how would Latin b change to w in Arabic if not by means of Vulgar Latin or its derivatives?

    (This thread is slowly getting its way to the Etymology and History of Languages sub-forum.)
     
    Yes, and التخفيف would be طايلة not طاولة.

    Having said that, if you really want to link it to the root ط و ل then it could have been صفة مشبّهة of the form فَعْلة which becomes طَوْلة, with time the فتحة may have turned into a long vowel.

    Note that I’m not saying that this is the origin, I’m saying that if this theory is correct then a صفة مشبّهة is more likely than اسم فاعل.
     
    eliding the glottal stop, common in general speech, and not very modern either. For example:
    صائم becomes صايم
    رأس becomes راس
    رئيس becomes ريّس
    صحراء becomes صحرا
     
    Mahaodeh said:
    eliding the glottal stop, common in general speech, and not very modern either. For example:
    صائم becomes صايم
    رأس becomes راس
    رئيس becomes ريّس
    صحراء becomes صحرا
    Click to expand...
    Does this change occur in classical Arabic, too?
     
    I wouldn’t call it a change, it’s just the way it’s pronounced. And yes, it was pronounced that way sometimes in some dialects.
     
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