tailor/tailleur/sastre

[apmoy70]

... There are also archaic words, ie. švelja or švalja. Although švelja would be used for factory tailors. Other synonyms would also be šivač and šivačica.

The factory tailor is «γαζωτής» [ɣaz̠o̞ˈt̠is̠] (masc. rare), «γαζώτρια» [ɣaˈz̠o̞t̠ria] (fem.) and is literally the stitcher, the worker who operates the sewing machine. The word is a deverbative, from the verb «γαζώνω» [ɣaˈz̠o̞no̞] --> to sew, stitch a denominative verb from the noun «γαζί» [ɣaˈz̠i] (neut.) --> stitch, a Byzantine Greek word, «γαζί(ον)» /gɐˈzi(on)/ (neut.), an Arabic loan قز /ˈqaz:/ --> silk.

Also, we have the surname «Αμπατζής» [aɱbaˈd͡z̠is̠] --> tailor of diaconal/priestly/episcopal vestments in the Orthodox Church < Ottoman Turkish عباجی /abaˈd͡ʒɰ/ --> maker of a coarse felted fabric, called عباء‎ /aˈba/ by the Ottomans, ultimately from the Arabic عَبَاءَة‎ /ʕabaːʔa/ --> cloak or jacket made of a coarse felted fabric. The Turkish name for the profession, «αμπατζής» is obsolete, the surname of occupational origin however, is still out there

 

[Awwal12]

I asked about other possible meanings hidden in word портной because I believe that a word related to tailoring must be located/hidden in a part of that word

Well, "pants" or "a kind of fabric" seem very well related to tailoring.

I would say that logic dictates that the word for "tailor" should have a clear connection with the primary actions of either cutting or sewing.

The empirical facts indicate that no, it shouldn't always have a clear connection to that (though you may very well expect such tendency). Semantic shifts are too complex and poorly predictable in general.
Cf. also Finnish vaatturi, lit. "cloth-er", etc.

 

[Rainbowlight]

Well, "pants" or "a kind of fabric" seem very well related to tailoring.

The empirical facts indicate that no, it shouldn't always have a clear connection to that (though you may very well expect such tendency). Semantic shifts are too complex and poorly predictable in general.
Cf. also Finnish vaatturi, lit. "cloth-er", etc.

I do appreciate your comments and insights. : )

However, I must say that I believe that a certain logic and common sense should be applied when trying to explain certain etymologies. In a former comment, a case was made for making the term "thread" the root of the Hebrew word for "tailor". I found it stunning and probably wrong.

In Spanish, the word "hilo" (meaning "thread") naturally flows into words such as "hilandero" o "hilandera". Both mean "a threader", someone who creates or deals with the making and managing of threads. Each one of those occupations are completely unrelated to the realm of tailoring. By the same logic, a word such as "weaver" should also be discarded as a possible root, as the work of a tailor has nothing to do with weaving threads or yarns to create a piece of fabric. Weavers and tailors have always been two separate, clearly distinct guilds.

As I see it, logic prevails in etymology because it yields clear, easily comprehensible connections. In this case, between verbs and nouns of professions.

I cannot wait to see your answer!

 

[Awwal12]

However, I must say that I believe that a certain logic and common sense should be applied when trying to explain certain etymologies.

Of course, but the trouble is that you cannot inverse explanation into prediction without having extremely good reasons for that. And in the case of historical semantic developments everything usually boils down to statistical probabilities. Typology can be (and is) applied in etymologization all right, but it's not strict laws which would have definitive proving or disproving effects.

 

[Yendred]

to my knowledge Tailleur is not a lastname in French.

To answer this very very old thread, I don't know people named Tailleur indeed, but there are many Couturier:
Couturier — Wikipédia

I guess most languages tend to name people from their profession or from their ancestors' profession.

 

[Panceltic]

In Slovene it would be šivilja for a female person, there is however an archaic word šivar for a tailor that is male. Dialectal for tailor would also be žnidar, only for male.

Never heard about šivar, but there is šivec. At any rate, the standard word is krojač.

 

[merquiades]

To answer this very very old thread, I don't know people named Tailleur indeed, but there are many Couturier:
Couturier — Wikipédia

I guess most languages tend to name people from their profession or from their ancestors' profession.

Yes, indeed, my landlord is named Couturier as well.

 

[Awwal12]

To answer this very very old thread, I don't know people named Tailleur indeed, but there are many Couturier:
Couturier — Wikipédia

I guess most languages tend to name people from their profession or from their ancestors' profession.

Professions are an obvious source of family names, but their frequency will highly depend on the particular socioeconomic situation at the moment when the majority of the population got their surnames. In the UK, Taylor is the fouth most frequent name (0.68%, excluding recent migrants). Among ethnic Russians, however, Швецов is only the 471th most frequent surname (less than 3:10.000), and Портнов didn't even make it into the 500 most frequent surnames. Surely, by the mid 19th century most ethnic Russians were still peasants living in more or less traditional communities; each sufficiently large village definitely needed a blacksmith (you cannot hope that every peasant will forge iron or do metal working in his spare time), but every peasant household still was making most clothes (male and female shirts, trousers, skirts or dresses, most upper garments) by themselves.

 

[AutumnOwl]

In Sweden those work/profession-related surnames doesn't exist, the only one I can think of is Smed (smith), and there are only 221 persons with that surname at the moment. About 60% of Swedish surnames either1 ends with -son (from old patronyms), or are nature related in some way.

 

[Rainbowlight]

Of course, but the trouble is that you cannot inverse explanation into prediction without having extremely good reasons for that. And in the case of historical semantic developments everything usually boils down to statistical probabilities. Typology can be (and is) applied in etymologization all right, but it's not strict laws which would have definitive proving or disproving effect.

Of course, but the trouble is that you cannot inverse explanation into prediction without having extremely good reasons for that. And in the case of historical semantic developments everything usually boils down to statistical probabilities. Typology can be (and is) applied in etymologization all right, but it's not strict laws which would have definitive proving or disproving effects.

I think you're absolutely right. However, I find it useful to think about very primal, logical terms and abstract ideas when exploring the possibly correct choices of etymologies, which are manifold. Case in point: If I were to think about the etymology of a word like "knife", I would definitely note the words "sharp" and "cut". I would probably add "pointy". But even clearly related words such as "weapon", "arm" or "shiny" or "bright" would be ruled out on the first stages, as I don't know if the word caught on in a time when metal knives were shiny or opaque.

 

[Terio]

To answer this very very old thread, I don't know people named Tailleur indeed, but there are many Couturier:
Couturier — Wikipédia

I guess most languages tend to name people from their profession or from their ancestors' profession.

Couturier is also pretty common in French Canada. No Tailleur, as far as I know. There is Taillon, but it seems it is related to cutting trees, not clothes.

 

[Yendred]

No Tailleur, as far as I know. There is Taillon, but it seems it is related to cutting trees, not clothes.

Same here. I knew someone called Taillandier, but it has nothing to do with clothes making. A taillandier is someone who makes or sells metal tools used for cutting.

 

[Włoskipolak 72]

In Polish

krawiec (male) from krawać , krajać , kroić → ucinać = chop, cut, slice.

krawcowa, krawczyni (female) = sewer, dressmaker.

krawiecki = sartorial

 

[El Ganador]

A few other languages:

In Sanskrit, the word is 'सौचिक', which comes from a word meaning 'a needle or a pointed object'

In Urdu (and Hindi), the word is 'darzi' (Romanized), which comes from Persian, ultimately from a root that means 'to attach, fasten; to load; to sew'

 

[ancalimon]

In Turkish: Terzi [e is like è in French]

A few other languages:

In Sanskrit, the word is 'सौचिक', which comes from a word meaning 'a needle or a pointed object'

In Urdu (and Hindi), the word is 'darzi' (Romanized), which comes from Persian, ultimately from a root that means 'to attach, fasten; to load; to sew'

The Turkish word seems to be related with Proto-Turkic *terkü.

Proto-Turkic: *terkü ( ~ -i-)
Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology

Meaning: saddle straps
Russian meaning: торока
Karakhanid: tergü (MK)
Turkish: terki `rear saddlebow'
Middle Turkic: terki (Pav. C.), (MKypch.) tergü (Houts.)
Azerbaidzhan: tärk `place behind the saddle'
Turkmen: tirkiš
Khakassian: tirgǝ
Shor: terig
Oyrat: terki
Chuvash: türt `back, back side', türt-lǝx 'чресседельник'
Yakut: törgǖ
Tuva: dergi
Comments: VEWT 475-476, EDT 544, TMN 2, 499-500. The stem is connected - in a somewhat unclear fashion - with *tirke- 'to hitch' (derived from tiz- 'to string' in Хелимский 1986 and Дыбо 1995, 282 - but the latter should be properly reconstructed as *diŕ-, so this derivation is by no means certain). External evidence suggests that *-i- is original here; the vowel *-e- in *terkü may be due to the influence of *dēr-ke- 'to gather; equip' (see *dēr-).

Today the verb "der" (to equip, to make, to patch up) seems to be related with its root.

Apparently also deri (skin) seems to be related.

Proto-Turkic: *dẹri
Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology

Meaning: skin
Russian meaning: кожа
Old Turkic: teri (OUygh.)
Karakhanid: teri (MK)
Turkish: deri
Tatar: tire
Middle Turkic: teri (MA, Abush.)
Uzbek: teri
Uighur: terä
Sary-Yughur: terɨ
Azerbaidzhan: däri
Turkmen: deri
Khakassian: tēr
Shor: tere
Oyrat: tere
Halaj: teri
Chuvash: tirǝ
Yakut: tirī
Dolgan: tirī
Tofalar: tere (Рас. ФиЛ)
Kirghiz: teri
Kazakh: teri
Noghai: teri
Bashkir: tire
Balkar: teri
Gagauz: deri
Karaim: terɨ
Karakalpak: teri
Salar: cīry
Kumyk: teri
Comments: VEWT 475, EDT 530, ЭСТЯ 3, 207-208, Лексика 383, Stachowski 223.

 

[Awwal12]

I asked about other possible meanings hidden in word портной because I believe that a word related to tailoring must be located/hidden in a part of that word, whether it is "measure", "needle", "scissors" or "sewing".

P.S.: Actually I've recently discovered that порты also could mean "clothes" in Old Russian a.k.a. Old East Slavic (the parallel not dissimilar to English cloth vs. clothes), so Russian портной is, essentially, clothing-er etymologically.

 

[Rainbowlight]

A few other languages:

In Sanskrit, the word is 'सौचिक', which comes from a word meaning 'a needle or a pointed object'

In Urdu (and Hindi), the word is 'darzi' (Romanized), which comes from Persian, ultimately from a root that means 'to attach, fasten; to load; to sew'

Thank you very much. : )

 

[Rainbowlight]

The factory tailor is «γαζωτής» [ɣaz̠o̞ˈt̠is̠] (masc. rare), «γαζώτρια» [ɣaˈz̠o̞t̠ria] (fem.) and is literally the stitcher, the worker who operates the sewing machine. The word is a deverbative, from the verb «γαζώνω» [ɣaˈz̠o̞no̞] --> to sew, stitch a denominative verb from the noun «γαζί» [ɣaˈz̠i] (neut.) --> stitch, a Byzantine Greek word, «γαζί(ον)» /gɐˈzi(on)/ (neut.), an Arabic loan قز /ˈqaz:/ --> silk.

Also, we have the surname «Αμπατζής» [aɱbaˈd͡z̠is̠] --> tailor of diaconal/priestly/episcopal vestments in the Orthodox Church < Ottoman Turkish عباجی /abaˈd͡ʒɰ/ --> maker of a coarse felted fabric, called عباء‎ /aˈba/ by the Ottomans, ultimately from the Arabic عَبَاءَة‎ /ʕabaːʔa/ --> cloak or jacket made of a coarse felted fabric. The Turkish name for the profession, «αμπατζής» is obsolete, the surname of occupational origin however, is still out there

Thank you so much.

 

[Rainbowlight]

Well, "pants" or "a kind of fabric" seem very well related to tailoring.

The empirical facts indicate that no, it shouldn't always have a clear connection to that (though you may very well expect such tendency). Semantic shifts are too complex and poorly predictable in general.
Cf. also Finnish vaatturi, lit. "cloth-er", etc.

Thank you very much but I stick with my choice to disagree. 🙂

I would say that, indeed, many of the words for "tailor" in Romance languages and even some amongst the Germanic languages do certainly come from several verbs linked to the actions present in the construction of a garment, from cutting to sewing and so on.

Of course, I do thank you for your message and your interpretation. : )

 

[Rainbowlight]

In Polish

krawiec (male) from krawać , krajać , kroić → ucinać = chop, cut, slice.

krawcowa, krawczyni (female) = sewer, dressmaker.

krawiecki = sartorial

Thank you so much. : )

 

[Rainbowlight]

The Turkish word seems to be related with Proto-Turkic *terkü.

Proto-Turkic: *terkü ( ~ -i-)
Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology

Meaning: saddle straps
Russian meaning: торока
Karakhanid: tergü (MK)
Turkish: terki `rear saddlebow'
Middle Turkic: terki (Pav. C.), (MKypch.) tergü (Houts.)
Azerbaidzhan: tärk `place behind the saddle'
Turkmen: tirkiš
Khakassian: tirgǝ
Shor: terig
Oyrat: terki
Chuvash: türt `back, back side', türt-lǝx 'чресседельник'
Yakut: törgǖ
Tuva: dergi
Comments: VEWT 475-476, EDT 544, TMN 2, 499-500. The stem is connected - in a somewhat unclear fashion - with *tirke- 'to hitch' (derived from tiz- 'to string' in Хелимский 1986 and Дыбо 1995, 282 - but the latter should be properly reconstructed as *diŕ-, so this derivation is by no means certain). External evidence suggests that *-i- is original here; the vowel *-e- in *terkü may be due to the influence of *dēr-ke- 'to gather; equip' (see *dēr-).

Today the verb "der" (to equip, to make, to patch up) seems to be related with its root.

Apparently also deri (skin) seems to be related.

Proto-Turkic: *dẹri
Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology

Meaning: skin
Russian meaning: кожа
Old Turkic: teri (OUygh.)
Karakhanid: teri (MK)
Turkish: deri
Tatar: tire
Middle Turkic: teri (MA, Abush.)
Uzbek: teri
Uighur: terä
Sary-Yughur: terɨ
Azerbaidzhan: däri
Turkmen: deri
Khakassian: tēr
Shor: tere
Oyrat: tere
Halaj: teri
Chuvash: tirǝ
Yakut: tirī
Dolgan: tirī
Tofalar: tere (Рас. ФиЛ)
Kirghiz: teri
Kazakh: teri
Noghai: teri
Bashkir: tire
Balkar: teri
Gagauz: deri
Karaim: terɨ
Karakalpak: teri
Salar: cīry
Kumyk: teri
Comments: VEWT 475, EDT 530, ЭСТЯ 3, 207-208, Лексика 383, Stachowski 223.

Thank you so much. : )

 

[Rainbowlight]

P.S.: Actually I've recently discovered that порты also could mean "clothes" in Old Russian a.k.a. Old East Slavic (the parallel not dissimilar to English cloth vs. clothes), so Russian портной is, essentially, clothing-er etymologically.

Sounds good enough! 😃 However, I myself, and for a deeply-ingrained essentialism, would have stick with a needle-er or a cutte-er.

Thanks all the same for your answer.

 

[ThomasK]

Swedish:
As mentioned above, skräddare is the Swedish word for tailor. The word is from the German word Schneider, meaning to cut.

That is indeed the old meaning, whereas I would think it is related to shredding, making scraps. But what is the meaning of to skräd in Swedish nowadays? Cutting or making scraps?