tanwiin aD-Damm تنوين الضم / sukuun سكون for individual words

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sidwagag

New Member
Arabic
Arabic Educators, linguistics and all Arabic language fans... We are creating an online program for kids. We have a list of words we are teaching, but disagree on to use Sukun or Damma Tanween at the end of the words... So should it says

Kitab or Kitabun
Bata or Batatun
Baqara or Bararatun
Mazra3a or Mazra3atun


Please advise. These are words that stand on their own. It's for teaching children (non-native speakers) 4 to 8 years old.

What does MSA rule say. We are trying to adopt new modern approaches of teaching Arabic. Thank you all.
 
  • WannaBFluent

    Senior Member
    Français
    I'm currently learning Arabic, so I know a lot of websites which teach Arabic with many different methods. And I have to say, they all put the damma tanwin at the end of the words. I really think you should put them to, even if we do not pronounce them.
     

    sidwagag

    New Member
    Arabic
    Thanks for your reply. This solution may be OK for adult learning Arabic. But may be confusing to children.

    If it's not pronounced, why put it there. Arabic is hard to pick up by non-native kids and we are looking to simplify things for them.

    But we don't want to use something wrong. All youtube videos and apps I have seen so far use sukoon on when pronouncing the words. So, I just need to validate the rule with experts in this Forum. Thanks again WannaBFluent
     

    OsamaAbdullah

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    I think you better use the skoon form ... I don't think it's okay for kids to think that a tanween is a part of the original word. That would confuse them for sure.
    so you better consider using the skoon in order to teach them the basic word, and i think using any علامات تنوين or نصب or جر will just confuse the kids in advanced levels later.
     
    Last edited:

    sidwagag

    New Member
    Arabic
    Thanks OsamaAbdullah. I am inclined to do that, but when we put this program on the web, I am afraid parents, other educators may question why we are doing that. I need a valid Qa3ida or sound argument or MSA standards. Does anyone know if any standards have been set to decide on this.
     

    WannaBFluent

    Senior Member
    Français
    Thanks for your reply. This solution may be OK for adult learning Arabic. But may be confusing to children.

    If it's not pronounced, why put it there. Arabic is hard to pick up by non-native kids and we are looking to simplify things for them.

    But we don't want to use something wrong. All youtube videos and apps I have seen so far use sukoon on when pronouncing the words. So, I just need to validate the rule with experts in this Forum. Thanks again WannaBFluent
    You know I saw, months ago, a very effective method to learn how to read and write Arabic. In 1 week, I was able to read Arabic (only with tashkeel of course). In this method, they use the dammah tanwin and at the begining, they also pronounced it! It is just at the 3rd lesson that they said in Arabic, you don't have to pronounce the last short vowel if the word is alone or not followed by others in the sentence.

    So what happened? They make you learn the 'hard' part and then the 'easy' one. Then you say 'oh cool, I don't even have to pronounce that!'
    However if you use the sukun, I think they will get confused because when they will see the word in a sentence, they won't understand... I'm not saying that they will think that 'kitab' is 'book' and 'kitabun' is something else, they are young but not that dumb; but they will be confused in my opinion.

    Moreover, as I said, I saw a lot of different methods, including some for children; example, the Madina Book of Shaykh Dr. V. Abdur Raheem. They do put the damma tanwin.
    I think you really should WRITE the damma tanwin, but do NOT PRONOUNCE it in the audio.

    And remember that they are kids, so they do not have so much motivation and can be distracted etc. I think you should better try to make them used to see the damma tanwin when they are the most motivate (at the begining), so they will get accustomed to the 'hard' part first, and then when they will learn the 'easy' one, they will be happy because they will understand it fast. But if they learn the 'easy' first and then the 'hard' it is possible that they will lose some of their motivation.

    And don't worry if you think you will confuse them. Even if they are 4 years old, they learn fast, even faster than us! :)
     

    sidwagag

    New Member
    Arabic
    Thanks for your thorough suggestion. Using damma tanween at the end but not pronouncing it may be one way to go.

    The issue is when we teach them first seven letters in level 1, we don't deal with tanween. Only damma, Kasra, Fat-ha and Sukoon.

    We plan to teach tanween at level 6.

    The purpose of this reading program is for them to be able to read a short story at the end. 6 pages long. 4 short sentences on each page.
     

    WannaBFluent

    Senior Member
    Français
    Ohhh I understand now. Yes, I didn't know that you will show them tanwin later... and why don't you use 'fake' words at the beginning. A lot of methods use that.
    For example you make them learn 'ا ب ت ث' and then read 'أَبْتَثِبَ', but maybe it is not a good idea for kids...
     

    sidwagag

    New Member
    Arabic
    That's right, WannaBFluent. I am using fake 2 letter words on the tashkeel tashkeel...Like BABI - BAB - BUBI - BIB - BAB.

    Here are some activities I have developed so far, happy to share with you to get your opinion. These should play well in Google Chrome.

    Audio with instruction is still to be added to those. As a non-native, please share your insight.

    These interactions will be exercise form. A lesson for each letter or word will be delivered through an animated character.

    http://djulera.azurewebsites.net/grid
    http://djulera.azurewebsites.net/bee
    http://djulera.azurewebsites.net/truck
    http://hyphadiet.com/Tracing2/
    http://alifstar.com/bucket.swf
     

    sidwagag

    New Member
    Arabic
    In response to سكندراني
    I wish we could do that...but that may not work here. Since many words I use are stand alone nouns for farm animal such as Batta - Kalb - Hissan - Kharouf - Baqra.

    I heard MSA has gotten rid of tanween at end of nouns...for simplified Arabic...anyone can validate that?
     

    إسكندراني

    Senior Member
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    I heard MSA has gotten rid of tanween at end of nouns...for simplified Arabic...anyone can validate that?
    This is an absurd claim. All that has happened is that prominent oriental dialects have featured more strongly in the media. But tanwin has not 'gotten rid of'. I don't quite understand how anyone would even go about getting rid of linguistic features!

    Regarding making up words, I fail to see why this is necessary or wise. You have hundreds of thousands of real words to choose from, and I have never seen anyone suggest teaching children gobbledegook in any language.

    Regarding farm animals or almost any other regular noun, you can avoid tanween for the early classes by adding ال التعريف, as I suggested in my last post; where is the issue?

    Also, since I have the privilege of your attention, I hope you can choose a legible font for the kids, some programs/books choose these appalling small and squareish fonts which I myself can barely make out!

    If I may ask, is your native language Arabic? Many new forumers put their target language in not their native language.
     

    sidwagag

    New Member
    Arabic
    Thank سكندراني . Like your stand and feedback.

    I agree not to make up funny words. But interaction I am working on is a test to ensure children master Tashkeel using two letter words. By using same letter in one word with different tashkeel. Four 2-letter words will appear with different tashkeel (EX: BUBU - BAB - BABA - BIBI), and an audio will play one word. Child has to click on the one they hear. These are non-native speakers, so it's important for them to know the shape of the letter, the sound of the letter, and tashkeel of that same letter. Therefore the reasoning behind focusing on that same lettre for Tashkeel.

    I also agree on the usage of fonts. Please check out some of the activities that are still under development...please use Google Chrome and let me know what you think.


    http://djulera.azurewebsites.net/grid

    http://djulera.azurewebsites.net/bee
    http://djulera.azurewebsites.net/truck
    http://hyphadiet.com/Tracing2/
    http://alifstar.com/bucket.swf
     

    إسكندراني

    Senior Member
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    It looks very nice, actually; good job!

    It's up to you of course, but there are better options than 'baba bibi bubu'. For example, مَن مِن مُنّ , لٓن لِن لُن , بَن بِن بُن ... This kind of system, even if it includes one or two words made up as convenient, is much more natural and starts introducing the learner to the way Arabic really is.
    I wish we could do that...but that may not work here. Since many words I use are stand alone nouns for farm animal such as Batta - Kalb - Hissan - Kharouf - Baqra.
    To clarify your original question:
    البطةُ albaTTatu
    الكلبُ alkalbu

    etc.

    avoids the need to introduce tanwin early.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    sidwagag

    New Member
    Arabic
    Thanks for your feedback.

    I have to agree with your suggestion. Only thing is I'd like to focus kids attention of Tashkeel rather then introducing them to new letters they have not been introduced to yet.

    A 2-letter word that uses the same letter will do 2 things: help child focus on Tashkeel, and change in the same letter position in the word.

    We won't ask them to memorize those words, but rather just to test their understanding of Tashkeel (Damma-Kasra-fat-ha and Sukoon).

    It's good you have a counter stand because we some will also ask same and we have to get our argument right.

    We tested this with children and think it's easier that way to learn both tashkeel and change in letter position.

    At end of level 1, kids will be tested with actual words (Like click on word that contains letter bu. Then 4 words are given that contain baa with baa-bi-bu or b).

    Fake 2-letter words are just to get them understand and master tashkeel.

    We are trying to avoid introducing definite article. "al Shamsiya and qamariya" will be introduced on letter 3. Had to votes to use Sukoon so far. So really appreciate your input.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
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