Thanks anyway / anyways.

polyglotwannabe

Senior Member
Spanish
I was looking in the forum threads, but saw none regarding the translationof this short phrase,
'.....you can attach that kind of document on our forum because it is too large......
Me : Okay, Thanks, anyways"

.'...das ist in diesem Forum leider nicht vorgesehen. Man kann nur Bilder bestimmter Formate anhängen und auch dabei gilt ein Größenlimit von ......'
Cool, Trotzdem, vielen Dank!.

Do Germans have an equivalent expression for this or, is the one given by me considered standard German?.
Thanks,
poly
 
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  • Lhost Vokus

    Senior Member
    German
    "Trotzdem vielen Dank" is good, but without comma.

    There are several ways:

    Schade, trotzdem vielen Dank.
    Verstanden, danke auf jeden Fall.
    Okay, aber Danke vielmals.

    "Cool" is also used in German slang/ colloquial language, but does not fit at all in this case.
     

    polyglotwannabe

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    "Trotzdem vielen Dank" is good, but without comma.

    There are several ways:

    Schade, trotzdem vielen Dank.
    Verstanden, danke auf jeden Fall.
    Okay, aber Danke vielmals.

    "Cool" is also used in German slang/ colloquial language, but does not fit at all in this case.
    Excellent.
    Thank you so much!
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Personally I don’t like the phrase “Thanks anyway(s)” in any language. It has an undertone of disappointment, dissatisfaction, or even criticism — which is at odds with “Thank you.” I recommend sticking to the thank-you part:

    Thank you!
    Thank you for the information!
    Thank you for your time!

    etc.

    No need for “anyway(s).”

    In German:

    Vielen Dank!
    Danke für die Info!
    Danke für Ihre Mühe!

    usw.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    It has an undertone of disappointment, dissatisfaction, or even criticism — which is at odds with “Thank you.”
    That describes the purpose of using this formulation very well. I guess we all know the state of mind that is well described by that dissonance.
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    That describes the purpose of using this formulation very well. I guess we all know the state of mind that is well described by that dissonance.
    Ok, but it is ambiguous. That may express dissatisfaction, disappointment over the fact that they didn't get the answer they wanted or over the fact that the person who replied didn't try much to give a better answer (or both).
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    It has an undertone of disappointment, dissatisfaction, or even criticism — which is at odds with “Thank you.”
    This is just exactly what it is about. And it adds psychological context and shows emotions.

    So I think it is correct.

    Schade, trotzdem vielen Dank.
    This fits well to the given context.

    In formal context, it might be good to omit emotions (Emotionen).

    A coll. variant:
    Me : Okay, Thanks, anyways"
    Ich: Na gut. Danke jedenfalls.

    ---
    PS: in #1 you thank for the answer and are disappointed about the facts.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    That's why it fits so well.
    :confused:

    There is a huge difference between
    “I know you did everything you could to help, and I genuinely appreciate your efforts, and I regret that things didn’t turn out the way I was hoping they would.”
    and
    “I don’t think you cared enough about this and I think you could have given me what I needed if you had put in more effort, and I’m only saying ‘thank you’ because, well, you did spend some time on it after all, and I want to be polite and not insult you outright.”

    In what way does an expression that could mean either of these things “fit so well”? Do you think this kind of ambiguity amounts to effective communication?

    Furthermore, my feeling is that nine times out of ten what’s meant is closer to the second of the two interpretations I gave above. Most of the time people who want to express the first sentiment use other wording. “Thanks anyway(s)” sounds dismissive, as in “Okay, fine, don’t waste any more of my time.”
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    There is a huge difference between
    “I know you did everything you could to help, and I genuinely appreciate your efforts, and I regret that things didn’t turn out the way I was hoping they would.”
    and
    “I don’t think you cared enough about this and I think you could have given me what I needed if you had put in more effort, and I’m only saying ‘thank you’ because, well, you did spend some time on it after all, and I want to be polite and not insult you outright.”
    Yes. Those are the ambivalent feelings that frustrating situations can generate at the same time.
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    Wouldn't #16 sound sarcastic?
    In German it does.

    Hi, Elroy, I want to explain:

    To me it sounds as a kind of blow to me in this pure form. I want to be friendly and say "Thank you, nevertheless."
    B: says: If you want to thank someone, just thank them! Don’t qualify your thanks.
    If I say "Danke" in this case, it is strange for me.


    But:

    You did not write it this way. You wrote:

    Exactly!

    If you want to thank someone, just thank them! Don’t qualify your thanks.

    This changes it. "Exactly!" softens it. It gives context.
    If I say "Danke!" here, it is not sarcastic.

    ---
    I think, often it is better to write a little bit more and put in emotions. ("Exactly!" builds positive emotions.)
     
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    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    I don’t see that that state of mind needs to
    be conveyed.
    I do. The other one knows you will be disappointed or frustrated and he knows he has to pass on a negative statement. There is no need to hide that. Why hide emotions that are absolutely natural and wide-spread and not tabooed?

    When I say "Trotzdem vielen Dank für deine Mühe" then I convey all that is necessary: I understood that it is a negative statement, I expressed my disappointment and I express my thanks.

    If I were the one who has to pass on the negative statement and the other one would just thank me, I would be in doubt whether he got the negativity. I would probably repeat myself!

    A: Ich habe Sabine gefragt, ob du auch mitkommen darfst. Sie hat leider gesagt, dass es dieses Mal nicht geht.
    B: Danke!
    A: äh....?! Es geht NICHT!
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Those are the ambivalent feelings that frustrating situations can generate at the same time.
    The two interpretations I gave are mutually exclusive.
    To me it sounds as a kind of blow to me in this poor form.
    I didn’t mean that you should only ever say “Danke” with a period after. I said you shouldn’t qualify (“relativieren”, “abschwächen”) your thanks. By all means feel free to be expressive and enthusiastic in expressing your thanks!

    Thank you so much!
    Thank you so much for your generosity!
    I’m so thankful for all the hard work you’ve put into this!

    etc.

    My beef is specifically with “anyway(s).”
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    A: Ich habe Sabine gefragt, ob du auch mitkommen darfst. Sie hat leider gesagt, dass es dieses Mal nicht geht.
    As I said to @Hutschi, I’m not saying you should only ever say “Danke” with no other words. In this context, for example, I might say “Ach so, schade. Danke, dass du gefragt hast!”.

    “Schade” expresses your disappointment with the outcome, with no possible implication that you’re disappointed with the person (for example, because they didn’t try to convince Sabine).

    If you do want to express disappointment with the person, by all means do so, just not in the same breath as “thank you.” I’m not saying people should not be able to express their emotions; I’m specifically saying I don’t like this particular phrase, for the reasons I’ve explained.
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    Why unfair? "Danke! =
    I shortened the quotation so that it did fit. But I mentioned it later.
    I was not suggesting “Vielen Dank!” for the OP context specifically. My post was general.
    I think there may be differences in German and English language. In general the meaning depends on context in German language. In most cases it is positive. But depending on context it can change the mood.
     

    polyglotwannabe

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    Very interesting comments. Thanks to you all.
    The only thing of merit I can add is that, in USA, when you say thanks, anyways, [and it is qualified with a smile or other positive gesture], is not in any way shape or form understood to transmit any feelings of dissatisfaction with the fact that the object of your inquiry was not successful.
    As to its effect on a German-speaking audience I am on the outside just lookin' in.:)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    in USA, when you say thanks, anyways, [and it is qualified with a smile or other positive gesture], is not in any way shape or form understood to transmit any feelings of dissatisfaction with the fact that the object of your inquiry was not successful.
    Wrong.
     

    polyglotwannabe

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    Thanks to everyone. Elroy, my good friend. You're entitled to your opinion. I love you for that. Thanks for your interesting input. It is highly valued by me.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    My whole point was that I would not use “thanks anyway(s).” My suggestions were intended to be alternatives that do not convey an undertone of disappointment, etc.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    The two interpretations I gave are mutually exclusive.
    Yes, that is correct. Both readings at the same time yield a logically inconsistent statement. In the particular case, this is an advantage because it describes an emotional state of minds that is incoherent as well.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    In my experience, people do not use this expression to convey mixed or contradictory emotions.
     

    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    In German language it is quite common to express disappointment about the facts explicitly and to thank the other one for explaining the facts or for her or his effords nevertheless.

    Das ist schade. Ich möchte dir/Dir//Ihnen trotzdem danken.
    Murks. Trotzdem vielen Dank.
    (stärker umgangssprachlich)
    Schade. Vielleicht gibt es doch noch eine Lösung. Danke für die Antwort.
    etc.


    In German, if there are bad news, usually you cannot say just "danke".
    Of course it also depends on context.


    In English, polyglotwannabe asked explicitely about such phrases in German.

    I think for German it is approbriate. I do not decide about English forms here.
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    In my experience, people do not use this expression to convey mixed or contradictory emotions.
    In my experience, people transmit mixed messages all the time and they do it for a couple of reasons. True ambivalence of their own feelings and opinions is one reason; failure to conceal ones true feelings or opinions is another and sarcasm a third one. All three of these reasons are potentially applicable here.
     

    polyglotwannabe

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    The two interpretations I gave are mutually exclusive.
    I didn’t mean that you should only ever say “Danke” with a period after. I said you shouldn’t qualify (“relativieren”, “abschwächen”) your thanks. By all means feel free to be expressive and enthusiastic in expressing your thanks!

    Thank you so much!
    Thank you so much for your generosity!
    I’m so thankful for all the hard work you’ve put into this!

    etc.

    My beef is specifically with “anyway(s).”
    Elroy,
    Thanks anyways( I know you tried hard, as hard as you could but you could not do it for me). No matter the results, I am appreciative. That is all there is to it, my friend.
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    In German language it is quite common to express disappointment about the facts explicitly
    We express a lot of things more directly and we even act more directly. So if we want a idiomatic, normal-German way, then it is absolutely OK to express such aspects.

    I don think that it help to use the taboos or political-correctness or "good intentions" of other languages in such a question.

    Fact is, most Germans would say something like "Trotzdem danke".
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I think we all know why people use it. Those reasons are exactly why I don’t like it and don’t think I’ve ever used it (or ever will).
    I don think that it help to use the taboos or political-correctness or "good intentions" of other languages in such a question.
    None of these have anything to do with why I don’t like the expression.
     
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    Sowka

    Forera und Moderatorin
    German, Northern Germany
    I tend to separate my thanks from any other considerations that I may have. Recently, I had an exchange about a suggestion I made. The person replying wrote that they were considering it, but there was little chance of it being implemented.

    I wrote: "Vielen Dank für Ihre prompte Antwort! Allerdings muss ich sagen, dass ..."

    In the OP context, there is no need for "anyway". If someone told me that a system simply can't handle the size of my file, I would say or write:

    Alles klar. Vielen Dank!

    I was often in the situation of the person giving the (disappointing) info, and I had no means to change anything about what disappointed my customers.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Let me clarify a few things:
    1.) I'm not saying that "danke trotzdem" is not a good translation of "thanks anyway(s)." I agree that they are equivalents of each other, and I agree that many people use them. I'm saying that I wouldn't use or recommend using either expression.
    2.) When I suggested "Vielen Dank!", I didn't necessarily mean that I would say nothing else. What else I would say would depend on the context/situation. I agree that a naked "Vielen Dank!" (or a naked "Danke!") could be curt, dismissive, or sarcastic in certain situations (and depending on the tone of voice).
    3.) I'm not saying one should not be able to express their disappointment (or any other emotion they are feeling). There are numerous ways to express your disappointment if that's what you want to do (I gave an example, "schade"). What I'm saying is that I wouldn't use this particular formulation; i.e. I would not express disappointment while simultaneously thanking someone.

    Having thought about this a bit more, I think I've managed to more clearly identify why the expression bugs me so much.

    We use "anyway"/"trotzdem" to mean or imply that although one might expect that X would not happen under certain circustmances, it actually did happen or is happening or will happen.

    For example:

    It's not supposed to rain today. I'm taking my umbrella anyway.​
    Es soll heute nicht regnen. Ich nehme trotzdem meinen Regenschirm mit.​

    The usual expectation would be that you wouldn't take your umbrella if it's not supposed to rain. "anyway"/"trotzdem" highlights that something is being done contrary to usual expectations.

    So "thanks anyway"/"danke trotzdem" to me implies that the usual expectation would be that I would not be thanked, but this person, out of the greatness of their heart, is thanking me anyway. Oh, how mighty generous of them! They're thanking me anyway! I should be so lucky to be graced with such magnanimity!

    Uh, no thanks. If I made efforts to help you with something, I deserve to be thanked regardless of the outcome. My receiving thanks should not be contingent upon whether or not you got the outcome you wanted! As @Sowka says, those are two separate matters.

    1.) Thank you for your efforts.
    2.) I'm disappointed / upset / angry / sad / ...

    Both of these can be expressed. Expressing them in the same breath is like a back-handed compliment. No thanks.
     

    Kajjo

    Senior Member
    So "thanks anyway"/"danke trotzdem" to me implies that the usual expectation would be that I would not be thanked, but this person, out of the greatness of their heart, is thanking me anyway. Oh, how mighty generous of them! They're thanking me anyway! I should be so lucky to be graced with such magnanimity!
    I understand now better where you are coming from. However, I never understood the phrase this way. We all know how it is meant -- so there is no sense in a word-by-word analysis that leads to the contrary interpretation than was originally intended. Bu again, yes, you are right, if we were to use this analogous reasoning it would be magnanimous.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    We all know how it is meant -- so there is no sense in a word-by-word analysis that leads to the contrary interpretation than was originally intended.
    That's the thing, though -- I don't think it's always meant the same way. As a matter of fact, as I said earlier, I think most of the time there are in fact at least traces of the exaggerated implications I described. So I'm not just engaging in a literal analysis; I think my reactions to the phrase are related to the actual intentions behind it in many cases. My lexical analysis and the umbrella analogy were attempts to better articulate or explain my discomfort with the expression.
     
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    Hutschi

    Senior Member
    So "thanks anyway"/"danke trotzdem" to me implies that the usual expectation would be that I would not be thanked, but this person, out of the greatness of their heart, is thanking me anyway.
    I see. So I indicate the difference.
    I omit "thanks anyway" because of possible English connotations.

    "Danke trotzdem" implies that the usual expectation would be that I would not be thanked if such hard errors/failures occur at my side (meaning if I disappointed the person due to an error in my system), but this person, out of the greatness of their heart, is thanking me anyway.

    "Danke" you say in German if someone helps you.

    Danke trotzdem - this says that the other could not help you but tried it or gave you some explaining answers. The help was unsuccessfully.

    Example:
    I go into a radio shop with a new ad from today's newspaper and want to buy a radio defined in the ad. They say in the ad: "Please come to us, it is a really good one" in the ad. (Such things were quite common but are forbidden now as far as I know.)

    I go there and they tell me: Sorry, we do not have it anymore. Two weeks ago we sold the last one.
    If I say only Danke. in German it clearly is sarcasm.
    If I say "Danke trotzdem", it says "Even while you completely disappointed me and the ad was a pure lie, I want to thank you. I think it is not your personal fault. So I try to be cooperative even if your shop is not.
    (If I thank you because I am polite or just by generosity does not matter.)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    If I say only Danke. in German it clearly is sarcasm.
    I don’t know why you keep harping on this point. As I said repeatedly, I’m not saying the alternative is a bare “Danke.” There are a million things you could add to express your sentiments and strike the right tone.
     

    Sowka

    Forera und Moderatorin
    German, Northern Germany
    If I say "Danke trotzdem", it says "Even while you completely disappointed me and the ad was a pure lie, I want to thank you. I think it is not your personal fault. So I try to be cooperative even if your shop is not.
    For me, the problem is that the person you are talking to probably can't do anything about it and may even share your feelings of disappointment. It's probably a mere shop assistant who is as cheated and exploited by the company as you are. ;)

    As I said before, I tend to be very clear. I thank the person for their efforts. Period. And, separately, I tell them where I see a problem. This doesn't cloud my thanks to them as a person.
     
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