I did not know the expression in English, but it is quite different from Dutch: "De aap komt uit de mouw" [The ape comes out of the sleeve" literally].
How about the version in your language?
How about the version in your language?
The cat is out of the bag
- Thread starter ThomasK
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In French, in the sense of something which was a secret but is not any more because it was revealed, we would say:
vendre la mèche (literally to sell the fuse) = to let the cat out of the bag
on a vendu la mèche (literally the fuse was sold) = the cat is out of the bag
The idea is that the fuse (mèche) of an explosive issue is given away (vendue) before it might have exploded and create surprise and/or damages.
vendre la mèche (literally to sell the fuse) = to let the cat out of the bag
on a vendu la mèche (literally the fuse was sold) = the cat is out of the bag
The idea is that the fuse (mèche) of an explosive issue is given away (vendue) before it might have exploded and create surprise and/or damages.
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In Spanish, I'd say:
Se ha descubierto el pastel (Lit., the cake has been uncovered)
In Catalan:
S'ha descobert el marro [səðəsku'βεɾtəɫ'maru] (Lit., the dregs/muddle has been uncovered/discovered)
Or, probably as a calque from the Spanish above:S'ha descobert el pastís [səðəsku'βεɾtəɫpəs'tis] (Lit., the cake has been uncovered)
In Dutch the fact is not that explosive.
I notice that the metaphors are quite different. Might the meanings be a little different?
- Dutch: finally everything becomes clear
- French: explosive discovery of the truth (with risks)
- Spanish/... : mud and cake have a different connotation ; is the truth ugly perhaps, or does the truth taste good??? ;-)
I notice that the metaphors are quite different. Might the meanings be a little different?
- Dutch: finally everything becomes clear
- French: explosive discovery of the truth (with risks)
- Spanish/... : mud and cake have a different connotation ; is the truth ugly perhaps, or does the truth taste good??? ;-)
The idea is the secret was explosive because of the surprise it would have created, but the surprise is not necessarily negative. See the following examples:
Je voulais faire une surprise à ma copine pour son anniversaire et l'inviter au restaurant, mais sa mère a vendu la mèche.
(I wanted to surprise my girlfriend for her birthday and invite her to the restaurant, but her mother let the cat out of the bag)
Les terroristes voulaient commettre un attentat mais leurs complices ont vendu la mèche, et ils ont été arrêtés avant.
(The terrorists wanted to carry out an attack but their accomplices let the cat out of the bag, and they were arrested before they did)
I don't know if the English expression suits in both cases.
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Curiosly, in Russian "a tomcat in the bag/sack" (кот в мешке, "kót v meshké") means something of unknown qualities, but the expression about letting the cat out of the bag is absent.
However, there is an expression "you cannot hide an awl in a sack" (шила в мешке не утаишь, "shíla v meshké ne utaísh" - about something which cannot be hidden for long), and a related "the awl has come out of the sack" (when everything is revealed, just as expected).
Still there is no FULL proverbial equivalent for "the cat is out of the bag" in Russian. Some authors (and especially translators) simply translate the English expression, but it isn't proper Russian anyway.
However, there is an expression "you cannot hide an awl in a sack" (шила в мешке не утаишь, "shíla v meshké ne utaísh" - about something which cannot be hidden for long), and a related "the awl has come out of the sack" (when everything is revealed, just as expected).
Still there is no FULL proverbial equivalent for "the cat is out of the bag" in Russian. Some authors (and especially translators) simply translate the English expression, but it isn't proper Russian anyway.
My dictionary suggests "раскрыть тайну" but it seems this literally means "unravel the mystery".
The origin of se ha descubierto el pastel is said to date back to times in which the cake makers (sometimes) didn't insert as much filling as anounced (or any at all) so clients asked them to cut the cake to discover if it had the anounced filling.
Very interesting note on the background!
Italian: (act., causative) "far uscire il gatto del sacco", just the same as in the other Romanic languages...
Just BTW: we do not have "to let the cat out of the bag", only the (static/dynamic) conclusion: "the cat comes out of the bag". it might be interesting to distinguish them in our answers: causative (let) vs. spontaneous/..."...
In that respect Russian seems to opens up a can of "catty" expressions, which we might treat at the Language Lab, and an interesting new metaphor for the original expression introducing an owl.
Just BTW: we do not have "to let the cat out of the bag", only the (static/dynamic) conclusion: "the cat comes out of the bag". it might be interesting to distinguish them in our answers: causative (let) vs. spontaneous/..."...
In that respect Russian seems to opens up a can of "catty" expressions, which we might treat at the Language Lab, and an interesting new metaphor for the original expression introducing an owl.
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Ok thanks, so no idiomatic way to translate the French "il/elle a vendu la mèche" as in my examples?
We might refer to betrayal, saying things that should not be said: verraden (but that is really tragic: to betray someone) or verklikken (like children do, hoping to win someone over and get a reward, but betraying of course their friend: "Mum, my friend has stolen the money!" - denouncing, tattling, especially squealing...). We can also uit de school klappen (talk from/ out of the school) when we - without realizing that - uncover secrets...
But I think those do not fit in perfectly here... It becomes clear to me now that we are all focussing on (un)covering the truth, but that things are so different. That will be a topic for the Language Lab again, I suppose.
However, I hope for some more (Verb)-cat/...-(Verb)-out of-bag/... stuff here...
But I think those do not fit in perfectly here... It becomes clear to me now that we are all focussing on (un)covering the truth, but that things are so different. That will be a topic for the Language Lab again, I suppose.
However, I hope for some more (Verb)-cat/...-(Verb)-out of-bag/... stuff here...
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Interesting. German is more like Italian than Dutch in this regard: die Katze aus dem Sack lassen.
Referring to the result is also possible: Die Katze ist aus dem Sack.
In Italian it is: far uscire il gatto dal sacco, but it is not that common, in my view. It is way more usual: vuotare il sacco (literally to empty the sack/the bag) let the cat out of the bag...
@Demiurg : vielen Dank! ;-)
@Olaszinhok: is there a static or moving version, like our "cat is getting out of the bag"?
@Olaszinhok: is there a static or moving version, like our "cat is getting out of the bag"?
No, there isn't, as far as I know...
That sounds similar to 'buying a pig in a poke' in English. A poke is a small bag.
It might be interesting to go into these "truth" expressions (well, truth and honesty - but to some extent they share truthfulness, I suppose). But maybe in a separate thread at the Language Lab...
Welsh: 'gollwng y gath allan o'r cwd' = to drop the cat out of the bag = to let the cat out of the bag, to let something slip out (usually intentionally).
'prynu cath mewn cwd' = to buy a cat in a bag = to buy a pig in a poke. (cf. The Russian expression using cats cited by Awwal12, above).
'prynu cath mewn cwd' = to buy a cat in a bag = to buy a pig in a poke. (cf. The Russian expression using cats cited by Awwal12, above).
There are no cats or monkeys in the Hungarian phrase, we say "the nail came out of the sack" (= the sharp point made a hole in the fabric):
Kibújt a szög a zsákból. - literally: out-stuck the nail the sack-from
Kibújt a szög a zsákból. - literally: out-stuck the nail the sack-from
That is quite new, thanks!
Greek:
«Βγάζω τ' άπλυτα στη φόρα» [ˈvɣa.zɔ ˈtap.li.ta sti ˈfɔ.ɾa] --> to expose the dirty laundry in public
«Φόρα» [ˈfɔ.ɾa] (fem. nom. sing.) is Byz.Gr and comes from the pl. fora of Lat. neut. sing. forum --> public place, marketplace, forum
«Βγάζω τ' άπλυτα στη φόρα» [ˈvɣa.zɔ ˈtap.li.ta sti ˈfɔ.ɾa] --> to expose the dirty laundry in public
«Φόρα» [ˈfɔ.ɾa] (fem. nom. sing.) is Byz.Gr and comes from the pl. fora of Lat. neut. sing. forum --> public place, marketplace, forum
Yes, a very good one: we use it too for showing/ exhibiting the truth: de vuile was buiten hangen...
French: I find acheter (un) chat en poche somewhere. Isn't that OK?
I guess it is technically fine in both cases.
Personally I wouldn't use it in the second case. Since I hardly use that expression and when I do it's in trivial cases like your first example, the second one talking about terriorists strikes me as odd.
I'd say "The terrorists wanted to carry out an attact but their accomplices sold them out / threw them under the bus, and they were arrested before they could do it."
By the way, wouldn't mèche be better translated as wick than fuse?
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In Romanian
We hadn't planned to announce it for a while... but since you've let the cat out of the bag...
to let the cat out of the bag = a scăpa porumbelul (to let the pigeon out (of the cage, of my hands) - with the meaning that the pigeon's owner was not cautious, careful)
Oh, what a revelation! Until now I thought the pigeon was... out of the mouth... all my childhood I imagined this.
We hadn't planned to announce it for a while... but since you've let the cat out of the bag...
to let the cat out of the bag = a scăpa porumbelul (to let the pigeon out (of the cage, of my hands) - with the meaning that the pigeon's owner was not cautious, careful)
Oh, what a revelation! Until now I thought the pigeon was... out of the mouth... all my childhood I imagined this.
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So exactly the same. Could that be a calque, like a translation? (Just wondering...)
Which post are you referring to?
I thought of Asad7080's Urdu version…
Could you translate in English what it is in Urdu version?
UPDATE: Ok, I understand. The Urdu version is the same in English version, the title of the thread.
بلی بیگ سے باہر ہے۔ = The cat is out of the bag.
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Well, I rely on Google T and it tells me that is literally: "The cat is out of the bag."
I did the same
Long Live the... Google T
In Macedonian we have that saying too:
мачка во вреќа (mačka vo vreḱa) "a cat in a sack"
Same in Hungarian: zsákbamacska (sack-in + cat)
Some general ideas about this thread
- it is mostly a cat, but it might be an owl or a dove; in French it is about the wick being sold, in Spanish about the content of a cake, or the nail in HUngarian...
- I happen to notice now: it is a tom-cat in some cases, but in general it is just a cat. it would be odd to refer to a tom-cat in our expression in Dutch.
- I have come to realize that in some cases people decide to let the truth come to light, whereas in some cases it happens inadvertently or without any premeditation. Our expression refers to truth revealing itself,
Hanging out the dirty laundry is slightly different; no suddenness involved, only the "ugly truth", with a special intention...
Buying cats in bags is also different: that is about cheating and making a mistake while buying, lit. or fig.
- it is mostly a cat, but it might be an owl or a dove; in French it is about the wick being sold, in Spanish about the content of a cake, or the nail in HUngarian...
- I happen to notice now: it is a tom-cat in some cases, but in general it is just a cat. it would be odd to refer to a tom-cat in our expression in Dutch.
- I have come to realize that in some cases people decide to let the truth come to light, whereas in some cases it happens inadvertently or without any premeditation. Our expression refers to truth revealing itself,
Hanging out the dirty laundry is slightly different; no suddenness involved, only the "ugly truth", with a special intention...
Buying cats in bags is also different: that is about cheating and making a mistake while buying, lit. or fig.
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It's all about general marking of gender for cats, actually. Two main questions are 1) what is the default gender of a generic animal from some species and 2) what is the situation with morphological marking of that gender. In Russian cats are generically feminine, but it's also female cats which take additional morphological marking (cf. f. "koshka" vs. m. "kot"; -t in "koshka" was removed according to an old diminutive/augmentative morphological pattern). So it's natural that tomcats sometimes take precedence.
That is quite true. Still, I suppose the use of "tom-cat" was a marked choice, i thought, non-default...
In English it's truly so, because tomcats are both non-default and bearing additional marking. It's also basically the same in German (Katz(e) vs. Kater); not sure about Dutch.
Russian is different, though, for the reasons described above.
Russian is different, though, for the reasons described above.
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In Dutch is it is even more complex, you could say:
default : kat (grammatically feminine)
non-default: kater (m.)
id.: kattin (f.), not very common though
default : kat (grammatically feminine)
non-default: kater (m.)
id.: kattin (f.), not very common though
How would you define the Hungarian idiom? Because I think it means something different. It seems cat's out of the bag means a secret has been revealed, so they are rather "false friends". But I bet the thread opener did not want exact translations just similar interesting phrases. While I have got the feeling the Dutch phrase means what the Hungarian one means, but I speak little Dutch, so....But here are no definitions, no contexts, so...
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Yes, you're right that the meaning of the Hungarian phrase is somewhat different, but I'd say it's still pretty close to the "cat" phrase:
"someone's true intentions (which he tried to keep secret) have been revealed".
Don't you agree?
Well, András, details matter I think it would be good to have some context if we want to learn here something or just make lists of phrases and disappear. I have not known the English phrase, and how should I know what the Dutch phrase means, well I use Google and I have the feeling it means something different. It would be appreciated to have some comments from natives what those English and Dutch phrases mean. I used to visit WR to learn.
I think it would be good to have some context if we want to learn here something or just make lists of phrases and disappear. I have not known the English phrase, and how should I know what the Dutch phrase means, well I use Google and I have the feeling it means something different. It would be appreciated to have some comments from natives what those English and Dutch phrases mean. I used to visit WR to learn.Indeed, I pointed some of those aspects in #37: we need to pay attention that we refer to the same meanings... That is why I opened up a thread on truth expressions elsewhere...
I would think it is not really the same, whereas it might be. But we are simply not used to really letting cats out of the bag, which might mean the same: something like deliberately bringing to light the ugly truth. Yet, in your case it is a generally known fact. I suspect that in English it is not, but it is ugly or at least "confronting" .
There is a difference between a truth that one is merely trying to conceal and a truth that one is trying to disguise.
To me, without knowing the Hungarian context, a nail coming out of a sack is a poorly concealed, neutral truth: one is not trying to pass off the nail as an orange, say.
A cat coming out of a bag is (originally) a poorly concealed, negative truth: the seller is trying to pass off the bagged cat as a piglet.
The most important feature of a proverb is the situation to which it applies. The literal meaning of the words, though, might tell you something about the culture in which the proverb arose (for instance, that at some point in English-speaking history, someone sold cats in bags, claiming they were other, more valuable, animals.)
To me, without knowing the Hungarian context, a nail coming out of a sack is a poorly concealed, neutral truth: one is not trying to pass off the nail as an orange, say.
A cat coming out of a bag is (originally) a poorly concealed, negative truth: the seller is trying to pass off the bagged cat as a piglet.
The most important feature of a proverb is the situation to which it applies. The literal meaning of the words, though, might tell you something about the culture in which the proverb arose (for instance, that at some point in English-speaking history, someone sold cats in bags, claiming they were other, more valuable, animals.)