The child jumped on the bed / the child jumped onto the bed

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by chat9998, Sep 21, 2006.

  1. chat9998 Senior Member

    Michigan
    English, US
    Hallo alle,

    Wie geht's?

    Ich bin neu hier... ich finde diese Seite ausgezeichnet!! Ich komme aus den USA, und ich habe Deutsch seit 2 Jahren studiert. Also tut mir Leid, wenn mein Deutsch nicht sehr gut ist!

    Meine Frage:

    How would one say "The child jumped on the bed." and also, "The child jumped onto the bed."? The semantic difference being, in the first, the child is already on the bed, and is make some small jumps while on top of it; whereas in the second example, he is jumping from an area off of the bed, onto it. I would just like to see how the two sentences would be differently structured.

    Vielen Dank!
    Gott segne,
    Jeff
     
  2. elroy

    elroy Imperfect Mod

    Chicago, IL
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Hi, Jeff, and welcome to the forums. :)

    The difference is conveyed in German by using the dative case and the accusative case, respectively. The dative is appropriate in your first sentence because the child is already on the bed (location); the accusative is appropriate in the second sentence because the child is moving onto the bed (movement).

    The child jumped on the bed. - Das Kind ist auf dem Bett gesprungen.
    The child jumped onto the bed. - Das Kind ist auf das Bett gesprungen.

    Dein Deutsch ist super; nur einen Satz hast du leider zu englisch ausgedrückt:
    Im Deutschen benutzt man das Präsens, und nicht das Perfekt, wenn man angefangen hat, etwas zu machen und es immer noch macht. "Studieren" ist eine ungeschickte Wortwahl hier, weil es eigentlich bedeuten würde, dass du Deutsch als Haupt- oder Nebenfach an einer Universität studierst.
     
  3. Jana337

    Jana337 Senior Member

    čeština
    Herzlich willkommen, Jeff! Dein Deutsch ist ausgezeichnet. And I mean it! :)

    Eine Korrektur: Ich studiere Deutsch seit 2 Jahren (Du hast das englische present perfect übersetzt).

    Dein Problem ist eigentlich ganz einfach.

    Im ersten Beispiel befindet sich das Kind auf dem Bett und es ist egal, ob es dort schläft oder springt. Es ist halt immer auf dem Bett (Dativ - wo?).

    Im zweiten Beispiel springt das Kind wohin? Auf das Bett (Akkusativ).

    I see that the usual explanation "Bewegung = Akkusativ" is a bit misleading because springing on the bed involves movement as well. :D However, it is pretty clear-cut anyway.

    I hope that you like the forum and that you stick around!

    Jana
     
  4. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    Jana, you know my complete lack of trust in my written German, but the idea of "herum" was going through my brain, and I found this:

    Unser Sohn (2 Jahre) legt sich meist mit einem Büchlein ins Bett oder springt auf dem Bett herum, bis er einschlafen möchte.

    This illustrates two things. First, dative is used because there is no change in location. Second, the word "herum" or another much like it is used to indicate that the location has some size. So we can imagine the child "jumping all over the bed" or "jumping around in his bed", but he never leaves the bed.

    Gaer
     
  5. chat9998 Senior Member

    Michigan
    English, US
    Vielen Dank, Jana and elroy!!

    Ihr habt meine Frage sehr schnell geantwortet!!

    Tut mir Leid, elroy... ich habe nicht gewusst, dass man hier persönliche Nachrichten nicht machen könnte.

    Jana - ich werde sicher hier bleiben!! Ich soll hier öfter kommen! Wenn ich davon gewusst hätte, hätte ich hier früher kommen!

    Und bitte - wenn ich [wieder] Fehler mache, sagt mir, wie ihr gemacht habt! Man kann nicht lernen, wenn man nicht weiß, dass man kein Recht hat! :)

    Vielen Dank!
    Bis bald,
    Jeff
     
  6. Kajjo

    Kajjo Senior Member

    The child jumped on the bed. - Das Kind sprang auf dem Bett.
    The child jumped onto the bed. - Das Kind sprang auf das Bett.

    Die Präposition "auf" kann mit Dativ (wo?) oder Akkusativ (wohin?) stehen. Somit kann man durch Wahl des passenden Kasus eindeutig bestimmen, ob man die Übersetzung von "on" oder "onto" meint.

    Kajjo
     
  7. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    Kajjo, there are two problems.

    1) We do not always use "onto", and this problem exists with other verbs:

    He dove (dived) in the pool.
    He dove (dived) into the pool.

    "He ran into the room and jumped on the bed." "Onto" may or may not be more correct, but moew than "on" is necessary to make the meaning clear. In this case it is context.

    2) The "dative" problem exists for us (English-speakers) because we automatically interpret motion as being linked to accusative (wrong, a HUGE trap for us).

    Supposing, for instance, you jump or dive in (into) a pool and then swim around in the pool. While you are swimming (definitely motion), will use dative or accusative. I THINK it is dative, but to this moment I still get confused over this point! :)

    Gaer
     
  8. elroy

    elroy Imperfect Mod

    Chicago, IL
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Bitte schön, Jeff. :) Es freut mich, dass du dich hier wohl fühlst.

    Ich habe auf deinen Wunsch deinen letzten Beitrag korrigiert. Wenn dir eine Frage zu einer der Korrekturen einfällt, darfst du jederzeit dazu ein neues Thema erstellen.

    Was "persönliche Nachrichten" angeht, man darf die anderen natürlich auf persönlicher Weise ansprechen. Man darf nur keine Nachrichten schreiben, die nichts mit dem Thema eines Fadens zu tun haben und in denen man nur plaudert. :)

    Lies dir bitte dazu unsere Regeln durch.

    Noch einmal heiße ich dich herzlich willkommen. :)
     
  9. elroy

    elroy Imperfect Mod

    Chicago, IL
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Definitely dative. Your doubts should cease if you think of the accusative as being associated with directed movement (movement toward a specific target).
     
  10. chat9998 Senior Member

    Michigan
    English, US
    Interesting point, Gaer... and ironic that you should bring it up, because my teacher just brought it up in my Deutschgruppe tonight. She was discussing the obvious difference between swimming around a pool, and swimming across a river. Both involve motion, but very different kinds. One has an obvious destination (the other side of the river), but the other has none, except to go around the pool. She didn't really know the answer to the question, so nothing was really resolved, except to say it was an interesting question. :) If anyone would care to entertain the question, I will certainly entertain the answer! ;)
     
  11. elroy

    elroy Imperfect Mod

    Chicago, IL
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    You said it yourself. How is that not a satisfactory answer? If you are moving toward a specific destination (whether voluntarily or not) you use the accusative and the destination is the object of your preposition. If you are just moving and happen to be in a specific location, then you use the dative to indicate where you are.

    Another example:

    Der Vogel flog über das Haus. - The bird flew from one side of the house to the other.

    Der Vogel flog über dem Haus. - The bird was flying/hovering over the house, having already been in that location.
     
  12. chat9998 Senior Member

    Michigan
    English, US
    I guess it is a satisfactory answer, it's just not one I knew. :) I'm not used to having to distinguish between types of movement; and so, it is... trying, sometimes, to have to think of it in those terms. Especially since, even in the pool, you can have a specific destination, but usually don't. I don't know, the best reason I can give you is that in my two years, I haven't advanced far enough to always be able to tell the difference. :(

    Danke,
    Jeff
     
  13. Kajjo

    Kajjo Senior Member

    Those are to be solved!

    It is exactly the same thing:
    In English you use a variety of prepositions.
    In German we vary the case of the object.

    Die einfachste Art ist, Fragen zu stellen.

    Wo springt das Kind? Wo schwimmt der Schwimmer? >> Dativ
    Wohin springt das Kind? Wohin schwimmt der Schwimmer? >>Akkusativ

    Eigentlich verbleiben nach diesen Fragen nur sehr wenige Zweifelsfälle.

    Kajjo
     
  14. Kajjo

    Kajjo Senior Member

    I gave the answer in my previous posting. Just to entertain you (rather than the question), I reply again:

    Please do not make your life more difficult than necessary. You do not have to distinguish two types of motions. We do not do that in German. You explained the two concepts of on and onto, respectively, very well in your very first post.

    Please try to ask correctly: Is it about WHERE a swimmer is swimming or WHERE TO he is swimming? Even if this does not matter in English, it should make clear, that you usually have the right concept in your mind when talking about the swimmer.

    Wo springt das Kind? (location) Where is it jumping?
    Wohin springt das Kind? (direction) Where to is it jumping?

    I hope this helped a bit.

    Kajjo
     
  15. elroy

    elroy Imperfect Mod

    Chicago, IL
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    That's true, but you have to ask yourself what the point of your sentence is. Let's say you're in the pool and you have a specific destination. Do you wish to communicate what your destination is, or simply that you are swimming in the pool? Even if you have a destination but don't wish to mention it you still use the dative. It's important to mention that if you use the accusative you must mention the destination as the object of the preposition. Otherwise, "ins Schwimmbad" would mean that you were not in the pool and you somehow moved into it.
     
  16. Kajjo

    Kajjo Senior Member

    I think the point Elroy mentioned, is very important: You have to decide what YOU want to say. It is not so much about German, but about what you really want to express.

    Kajjo
     
  17. sneeka2

    sneeka2 Senior Member

    東京
    German
    Wenn sich jemand dazu bequemt hätte den Pool-Satz zu übersetzen, wäre der Unterschied vielleicht noch eindeutiger. ;)

    Er schwamm in dem Becken (herum).
    Er schwamm durch das Becken (und stieg am anderen Ende aus).
     
  18. Kajjo

    Kajjo Senior Member

    Danke, Sneeka. Ich hatte es eher als Übung gedacht, aber so ist es natürlich eindeutiger!

    Kajjo
     
  19. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    I swam 80 laps in the pool during swim practice.

    Dative?

    I would pick dative because the motion is to and fro, within the pool, but as I tried to point out, tactfully, in such cases I am not 100% sure and I don't think that even advanced students, people who are otherwise confident in German, are always sure which to use in all situations where natives will choose the correct solution by feel.

    I do not think this is a simple subject with answers that are always simple. Almost any problem appears simple when basic sentences are chosen.

    But perhaps I am a bit slow.

    G.
     
  20. sneeka2

    sneeka2 Senior Member

    東京
    German
    Während meiner Schwimmübungen absolvierte ich 80 Runden in dem Becken.

    This sentence is not about you going anywhere, it's about the 80 laps that happened to take place in the pool. It's really not all that complicated.
     
  21. heidita Banned

    Madrid, Spain
    Germany (German, English, Spanish)
    I have been teaching German to Spanish students and the difference is not so easy as it looks to a German. We have no trouble distinguishing it by asking wo or wohin, but you must know the difference between wo and wohin first. In Spanish and in English the difference is not at all so clear.

    Where do you live? Wo lebst Du?

    Where do you think you are going? Wohin gehst du?

    In the second sentence the to is often omitted.

    So, I teach, and it has given me excellent results, that wohin, is used to go from one place to another place! Not simply the direction, but another place!

    The difference then in the swimming pool or swimming to the other side of the river is very clear.

    The same happens with the verb to dace. Many students consider it a verb of movement, hence use Akkusativ. but normally, the dancing takes place in a closed area, so you do not change places. Hence: Dativ.

    Sie tanzte die ganze Nacht in der Disco. (Dativ)

    Sie tanzte sich den Weg frei. Sie tanzte von der Disco auf die Strasse. (Akkusativ)

    Ich gehe auf die Strasse (von zu Hause auf die Strasse).

    Sie ging mitten auf der Strasse spazieren.

    Er lief in den Wald. (street to forest)

    Er lief eine Stunde "jogging" in dem Wald.
     
  22. heidita Banned

    Madrid, Spain
    Germany (German, English, Spanish)
    Ja, sehr klar für uns, nicht so klar für einen nicht Deutschen.
     
  23. Bonjules Senior Member

    Caribbean
    German
    Um auf den urspruenglichen Satz zurueckzukommen -und das ist vielliecht mehr eine Stilfrage- genau wie sneeka ein 'herum' dransteckt, fehlt dasselbe m. E. auch in dem Satz 'das Kind sprang auf dem Bett' . Ich glaube nicht, dass man den Satz so gerne lesen wuerde.
     
  24. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    That's why I picked this sentence:

    link

    Unser Sohn (2 Jahre) legt sich meist mit einem Büchlein ins Bett oder springt auf dem Bett herum, bis er einschlafen möchte.

    It appeared to be simple and idiomatically correct to me.

    And isn't this exactly what you are all talking about? Motion confined to an area, something going back and forth, round and round, etc?
     
  25. Bonjules Senior Member

    Caribbean
    German
    Ja du hast Recht, Gaer!
    Du hast es als erster richtig formuliert. sorry!
    Es war mir nur noch im Gedaechtnis dass die urspruengliche
    Uebersetztung (by Elroy, I think) zunaechst hingenommen wurde.
    Good pick up!
     
  26. chat9998 Senior Member

    Michigan
    English, US
    Vielen Dank, alle!

    Ich verstehe die Antworten, aber ich muss jetzt immer noch denken. I usually don't have trouble coming up with the right answer, but I sometimes have to think a bit, which is a problem only in speaking, and not writing.

    I know that this isn't an easy, or clear-cut issue for most German speakers who are native to America, because I have heard people who have studied German for years still quibble with it. I'm not totally sure why that is, except that we never differentiate, and to do so perhaps creates a situation in which we over-think, instead of just think. I really don't know, but I know it is a problem for most.

    All the same, thanks all!
    Jeff
     
  27. Kajjo

    Kajjo Senior Member

    You are welcome! And rest assured, that we all know how outrageously difficult foreign languages can be, even if some points appear perfectly easy to natives! We all struggle with the foreign language we try to learn.

    Kajjo
     
  28. chat9998 Senior Member

    Michigan
    English, US
    Vielen Dank!

    Leider fühle ich mich ein bisschen dumm, wenn die Leute sagen, dass etwas ganz klar ist, ist es aber offensichtlich nicht für mich!
     
  29. Bonjules Senior Member

    Caribbean
    German
    For future reference, Jeff:
    You' d rather say: Vielen Dank an Alle or Allen vielen Dank. Just another one of those things one can not translate directly...
    so long
    bj
     

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