The cruiser is berthed (moored) at/beside/by the embankment

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sharkee

Banned
Mexican Spanish
Hello,

Please take a look at the photo showing a battleship berthed near one of the embankments. http://www.google.ru/imgres?q=Auror...3&tbnw=210&start=0&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0

My question is as follows: which preposition can we use to say that the ship is near the embankment:

1) The cruiser is berthed (moored) at the embankment
2) The cruiser is berthed (moored) beside the embankment
3) The cruiser is berthed (moored) by the embankment

Thanks
 
  • JamesM

    Senior Member
    It depends on what the ship is tied to and what you are trying to describe. I can't tell from the picture. (I did see a picture of a ship that looked like it was frozen in ice next to a large cement walkway.)

    It is tied up to the embankment? If so, I would say it's moored at the embankment (or moored to the embankment). Are you describing its location so that someone can go to see the ship? If so, use "at". If you are describing what the ship is connected/tied to, use "to".

    Is it simply anchored there? Then I would use "by" or "beside". Either one would work for me.

    I wouldn't use "berthed". To me, a ship is berthed at a dock or a wharf. I don't see either of these in the picture.
     

    sharkee

    Banned
    Mexican Spanish
    Thank you!

    A very informative post. You are right saying that it's tied up to the embankment. In many ports like Odessa (Ukraine), Tallin (Estonia), etc. there are old ships like this. They are permanently in dock and are mainly used as museums or warehouses. Thus "at" and "to" both seem possible in my context.

    Concerning the ship being anchored that's also true and according to what you say we can use "by" or "beside". However how can we make these words compatible with the fact that the ship isn't only near the embankment, but it's also tied up to it?

    Which option out of four (by, beside, to, at) is best?

    Concerning "berthed" and "moored" I trust you here.

    Best wishes



    It depends on what the ship is tied to and what you are trying to describe. I can't tell from the picture. (I did see a picture of a ship that looked like it was frozen in ice next to a large cement walkway.)

    It is tied up to the embankment? If so, I would say it's moored at the embankment (or moored to the embankment). Are you describing its location so that someone can go to see the ship? If so, use "at". If you are describing what the ship is connected/tied to, use "to".

    Is it simply anchored there? Then I would use "by" or "beside". Either one would work for me.

    I wouldn't use "berthed". To me, a ship is berthed at a dock or a wharf. I don't see either of these in the picture.
     

    JamesM

    Senior Member
    Thinking about it a little more (after a little coffee), I don't think I would use "to". I would use "at", "beside" or "by". "At" seems like the best choice to me here.
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    The only acceptable one is, "The cruiser is berthed (moored) alongside the embankment."
     

    sharkee

    Banned
    Mexican Spanish
    In fact at first I didn't take "alongside" into consideration. JamesM is from the USA, while PaulQ is from England and probably that's the reason why their suggestions differ. I trust both of them of course. Nonetheless if other visitors add more opinions, I'd definitely appreciate it.
     

    JamesM

    Senior Member
    "Alongside" certainly works, but I don't think it's the only acceptable one. A quick search shows that all sorts of prepositions are used:

    http://www.squaremeal.co.uk/venues/london/view/23651/Rs_Hispaniola
    Venue Review of RS Hispaniola
    With views of St Paul’s Cathedral & the Houses of Parliament, this former Scottish passenger ferry, now permanently moored on Victoria Embankment, operates as a stylish restaurant, bar & event space. RS Hispaniola offers a number of tastefully furnished spaces suitable for dinner dances, meetings & summer parties.

    http://www.squaremeal.co.uk/venues/london/view/22376/Hqs_Wellington
    Venue Review of HQS Wellington
    Moored on the Thames by the Embankment, opposite Temple tube station, the Head Quarter Ship Wellington offers an unusual backdrop for corporate events.

    http://www.caniseethat.co.uk/QueenMary/
    The Queen Mary is moored on Victoria Embankment next to Waterloo Bridge.

    http://www.london-footprints.co.uk/visitships.htm
    HQS WELLINGTON is the white ship moored at Victoria Embankment.

    http://hispaniola.co.uk/
    Permanently moored on the River Thames alongside Victoria Embankment by Jubilee Footbridge, just opposite the London Eye, the R.S.Hispaniola's beautiful, fully air-conditioned restaurant, serving high-quality food, provides a relaxed, gastronomic haven amidst the city bustle with fabulous views from both decks by day and night.

    http://www.squaremeal.co.uk/venues/london/view/22376/Hqs_Wellington
    Moored on the Thames by the Embankment, opposite Temple tube station, the Head Quarter Ship Wellington offers an unusual backdrop for corporate events
     

    sharkee

    Banned
    Mexican Spanish
    Very good. Many examples with "by" and "on", no examples with "beside" and one with "alongside". In fact "on" seems a bit starnge at first sight since "on" usually implies something located over "another something", but I think here it must have the same meaning as the other prepositions.
     

    Andygc

    Senior Member
    British English
    The greatest naval power the world has ever known! These things are in our blood! :D
    Hmm. Actually, the English wouldn't have got very far without the Scottish and Irish engineers who built a very large proportion of the ships that formed the Royal Navy - not forgetting the Stevenson family who built the lighthouses that got them out of the habit of bumping into various hard bits of Scotland.

    I do not agree that "alongside" is the only choice - particularly with "moored". With "berthed" you probably have fewer choices: "berthed by the embankment" and "berthed at the embankment" sound wrong (although I suppose not impossible). There is nothing wrong with describing the ship in your photo as being berthed - she is moored securely alongside and has a brow (companionway) going ashore. I take it that she is now staying put, so she is certainly berthed. In that context, I'd go with PaulQ and describe her as berthed alongside the embankment, even though she may be moored by, near, at, on or alongside the embankment. (Actually - that ship is not moored on the embankment because she is secured to buoys and does not have lines ashore)
     

    JamesM

    Senior Member
    There is nothing wrong with describing the ship in your photo as being berthed - she is moored securely alongside and has a brow (companionway) going ashore. I take it that she is now staying put, so she is certainly berthed.
    Can you expand on this a little? It seems that "berthed" indicates a more permanent location to you. I'd like to know more about that.
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    Various references to Victoria Embankment
    Do you think it makes a difference that the London [Victoria] Embankment is a proper noun whereas, I assume, the one in Russia is just any old embankment?
     

    sharkee

    Banned
    Mexican Spanish
    I've travelled by ship to many places and I remember when I was in Copenhagen our shore exurcion manager (she was from Wales) said something like "Our ship will be moored for 2 days". I think in this sentence "berthed" won't be correct because that stay was temporary. However in some places in Europe there are ships staying in some places forever or for a pretty long period of times numbering hundreds of years. In this case "berthed" appears fine even when a ship in not at a dock or wharf.
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    A vessel moors anywhere by being made secure by cables or the like. A vessel can be at sea and moored by anchor.

    However, a berth is a place allotted to a vessel either alongside a dockside/jetty/land/wharf/etc., or at sea (usually not far from the port/harbour/wharf/etc.)

    When a vessel is on its berth and secured, it is moored on its berth - i.e. it has berthed. Once it has berthed, it is then at berth.

    I hope this helps.
     
    Last edited:

    Andygc

    Senior Member
    British English
    @ JamesM
    For some reason the "reply with quote" option seems to be misbehaving. You wrote
    Can you expand on this a little? It seems that "berthed" indicates a more permanent location to you. I'd like to know more about that.
    Not so much permanent, more a matter of intent. "Moored" just means secured to the land or to a mooring buoy, or anchored. "Berthed" means the ship is in the place intended for it. That may be temporary - eg, just long enough to unload the cargo - or permanent - eg the restaurant ships on The Embankment in London. A ship may, for example moor outside a harbour while waiting for the tide before moving up river to moor at her berth (or berth at her berth :cool:) where she will discharge cargo or take on passengers - and once she is there, she's berthed.
     

    Parla

    Member Emeritus
    English - US
    I agree with James that the ship isn't "berthed"; she's moored. As to the embankment, which isn't clear in the photo (your second link did work; thanks), I like at or alongside.
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    I agree with James that the ship isn't "berthed"; she's moored. As to the embankment, which isn't clear in the photo (your second link did work; thanks), I like at or alongside.
    A berth is allocated by the Port Authority. If the Port Authority say that her berth is 20m out from the embankment, then when she moors at that point, she is berthed there.
     

    Andygc

    Senior Member
    British English
    @ Parla
    I must disagree with you. The cruiser is clearly moored in her intended place alongside the embankment, attached to a set of permanent mooring buoys, with access to the shore by a brow which runs from a shoreside building. She is berthed.
     

    JamesM

    Senior Member
    Thanks for the additional discussion on "berthed". Like Parla, I have always used the word to mean an allotted space on a dock or wharf where a ship pulls up. I hadn't thought of it in a sense of a permanent home. I'm still chewing on that.
     

    Andygc

    Senior Member
    British English
    Thanks for the additional discussion on "berthed". Like Parla, I have always used the word to mean an allotted space on a dock or wharf where a ship pulls up. I hadn't thought of it in a sense of a permanent home. I'm still chewing on that.
    Please don't misunderstand me - there should be some land involved. I have a boat which is allocated a mooring in the river. That could (at a stretch) be described as a berth (ie an allocated place within the harbour), but I would never say that the boat is berthed, I say that it is on its mooring. In the case of the cruiser in the OP the ship has an allocated place in the harbour, which happens to be close in to the embankment and is the place it uses to do its business (being a museum). It has a berth, and when it is in it, it is berthed. It would be the same if it was a houseboat on the River Thames. I was trying to think of a rule that could apply and thought maybe purpose came into it - a vessel has a berth to discharge cargo, to bunker, to board passengers, to be a museum, to be a restaurant, to be a home. However, that doesn't cover yachts in marinas which I would describe as having a berth in their home marina, but all their berths are for is a place to be stored between uses - and that's no different from my boat swinging round a buoy in the river. It also doesn't cover oil tankers mooring to a single-point mooring to discharge their cargoes - I'd not describe them as berthed. It is not just being secured to the land though, since a canal boat tied up for the night is moored, not berthed. That leaves me with a definition that requires a berth to be allocated officially and to be attached to land - even if the attachment is not actually by means of the mooring lines (as the cruiser in the OP).

    That seems to have flogged that pretty well to death. :eek:
     
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