the distance a javelin was thrown

Julianus

Senior Member
Korean
Hello~.

1a. For example, using a tape measure to determine the distance a javelin was thrown yields very similar results regardless of who reads the tape. (Korea high school English book)

1b. For example, using a tape measure to determine the distance which a javelin was thrown yields very similar results regardless of who reads the tape.
1c. For example, using a tape measure to determine the distance at the which a javelin was thrown yields very similar results regardless of who reads the tape.
1d. For example, using a tape measure to determine the distance where a javelin was thrown yields very similar results regardless of who reads the tape.

I think a relative can be used between "the distance" and "a javelin". But I don't know what it is exactly.
I made some possible sentences like 1b, 1c, or 1d. Which one has the same meaning as 1a? If they all don't have the same meaning as 1a, which relative is ommited?

Thank you as always~.
 
  • Julianus

    Senior Member
    Korean
    The original sentence is grammatically correct, Julianus (the alternatives are not). Why do you want to change it?
    When two sentences are combined, as far as I know, a relative should be used--though it can be ommited. But I can't find out which relative is ommited in 1a. If I restore 1a to an original sentence, I can't make a right sentence as follows.

    2a. He(or she) threw a javelin at the distance.:confused:
    2b. He threw the distance a javelin. :confused:
     

    Parla

    Member Emeritus
    English - US
    When two sentences are combined, as far as I know, a relative should be used—though it can be omitted. But I can't find out which relative is omitted in 1a.
    What "two sentences" are you talking about? I don't see any other sentences that have been "combined" to make sentence (1a).
     

    Julianus

    Senior Member
    Korean
    What "two sentences" are you talking about? I don't see any other sentences that have been "combined" to make sentence (1a).
    I think 1a is combined from two sentences--Koreans usually have learned English sentence this way.

    Using a tape measure to determine the distance yields very similar results + He threw a javelin at the distance.:confused: or He threw the distance a javelin. :confused: (and the latter sentence is changed in to the passive voice.)
    = 1a.
     
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    Englishmypassion

    Senior Member
    India - Hindi
    I find "Using a tape measure to determine the distance that a javelin was thrown yields correct results" grammatically correct! Am I missing something, Parla?
     

    Copyright

    Senior Member
    American English
    I find "Using a tape measure to determine the distance that a javelin was thrown yields correct results" grammatically correct! Am I missing something, Parla?
    Well, you're missing the fact that only you are using "that," while none of the other four sentences in the OP does. :D
     

    Copyright

    Senior Member
    American English
    If I tell you yes, then you can be sure. :)

    "That" is one of those common words that can often be dropped. Oscar Wilde may have labored over including or excluding commas, but I spend more time each day deciding whether or not to use "that" in specific instances. I usually make those decisions on rereading.
     

    Julianus

    Senior Member
    Korean
    Ha ha, very witty answer, Copyright. My sentence is correct then. Can I be sure? Thanks.
    If I tell you yes, then you can be sure. :)

    "That" is one of those common words that can often be dropped. Oscar Wilde may have labored over including or excluding commas, but I spend more time each day deciding whether or not to use "that" in specific instances. I usually make those decisions on rereading.

    If "that" is omitted in 1a, is "that" in 1a a relative pronoun or a relative adverb?
     

    VicNicSor

    Banned
    Russian
    Mmmm... I see nothing wrong with 1b.:confused: If "that" works, why does "which" not? "Which" is not only used in non-defining clauses...
    If "that" is omitted in 1a, is "that" in 1a a relative pronoun or a relative adverb?
    It's a pronoun, which refers to "distance".
     

    Julianus

    Senior Member
    Korean
    Mmmm... I see nothing wrong with 1b.:confused: If "that" works, why does "which" not? "Which" is not only used in non-defining clauses...

    It's a pronoun, which refers to "distance".
    Then, if it's a pronoun, how about the following process?

    3a. Someone threw the distance a javelin.
    3b. Someone threw a javelin to the distance.
    3c. A javelin was thrown to the distance.
    3d. .... the distance to which a javelin was thrown.
     

    JulianStuart

    Senior Member
    English (UK then US)
    The problem I see is with the original concept of "throwing" and "distance", so "the distance a javelin was thrown" is fine.

    I don't know what the grammarians would call the "100 feet" -? adverbial phrase? perhaps but:
    I have thrown a javelin 100 feet. :thumbsup:
    I have thrown a javelin to 100 feet. :thumbsdown:

    cf

    I drove the car ten miles.
    I drove the car to ten miles.
     

    Julianus

    Senior Member
    Korean
    If 3d is correct, how about the following sentence?

    3e. .... the distance a javelin was thrown to yields very similar ...
     

    mink-shin

    Senior Member
    Korean - Korea, Republic of
    The problem I see is with the original concept of "throwing" and "distance", so "the distance a javelin was thrown" is fine.

    I don't know what the grammarians would call the "100 feet" -? adverbial phrase? perhaps but:
    I have thrown a javelin 100 feet. :thumbsup:
    I have thrown a javelin to 100 feet. :thumbsdown:
    Hi, Julian.
    Can I apply your way to other adverbial phrases?

    I ran 10 miles. :thumbsup:
    I ran to 10 miles. :thumbsdown:
    -> The distance I ran was ten miles. (I think it's good)
    -> The distance to which I ran was ten miles. (Is it bad?)

    I drove 20 mph in a school zone.
    -> The speed I drove in a school zone was 20 mph. (good?)
     

    JulianStuart

    Senior Member
    English (UK then US)
    Hi, Julian.
    Can I apply your way to other adverbial phrases?

    I ran 10 miles. :thumbsup:
    I ran to 10 miles. :thumbsdown:
    -> The distance I ran was ten miles. (I think it's good)
    -> The distance to which I ran was ten miles. (Is it bad?)

    I drove 20 mph in a school zone.
    -> The speed I drove in a school zone was 20 mph. (good?)
    Those assessments seem fine to me.
    We run a certain distance to a location. We ran ten miles to the city.
     
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