'The leaf slowly fallen from the tree is red'---incorrect?

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Chigch

Senior Member
Mongolian
The following sentences are said in an article to be ungrammatical because 'fallen' cannot express an action (event, as a linguistic term) and therefore incompatible with the adverbials that express actions like 'at five o’clock', 'since last Sunday', 'from the tree' and 'slowly'

1. The leaf fallen from the tree at five o’clock/since last Sunday is red.
2. The leaf slowly fallen from the tree is red.
(http://www.hum2.leidenuniv.nl/pdf/lucl/sole/console9/console9-marvin.pdf; P148)

I doubt the judgement of these two examples, because sentences like 'The snow fallen yesterday has melted' (http://forum.wordreference.com/showt...6#post14675296) is grammatical.

Could anyone tell me how 1. and 2. would sound to you?
 
  • Copyright

    Senior Member
    American English
    Your link is incorrect -- you need to remove the final semicolon. And there is no page 148 in that 16-page document -- it's on page 8.

    To save people some trouble, here is the section:

    4.3. Bulgarian versus English/Spanish
    In this section I present the data showing that English and Spanish Active Past Participles are not Perfect Participles. The main argument is the fact that these participles do not express events in the first place. First, if they were eventive, then the event could be potentially modified by adverbs. However, English and Spanish Active Past Participles in RRs cannot be modified by an adverbial referring either to the manner or the time of the event, as shown in ...
    (the two example sentences that you cite).

    Frankly, all this is beyond my knowledge or interest, so I can simply share what I would normally say:

    1. The leaf that fell from the tree at five o’clock last Sunday is red.
    2. The leaf that slowly fell from the tree is red.
     

    e2efour

    Senior Member
    UK English
    It sounds poetic to me. I would also separate it with commas: The snow, fallen yesterday, has melted.
    I wouldn't use either sentence 1 or sentence 2
    (instead: leaf that slowly fell/leaf that has slowly fallen).

    (cross-posted with Copyright)
     
    Chigch. Did you not notice in the original that the sentences are asterisked. That means they are defective. Re-read the intro "cannot be modified."

    It's not crystal clear, but the format is this: In English you cannot put 'very' in front of a past tense verb. *The bird very ran.

    NOTE: Yes, 148 is the correct *internal* paging of the quotation.
     

    Chigch

    Senior Member
    Mongolian
    Chigch. Did you not notice in the original that the sentences are asterisked. That means they are defective. Re-read the intro "cannot be modified."
    Of course, I noticed the asterisks, which indicate the ungrammaticality of the sentences. I just want an additional confirmation about the (un)grammaticality in this thread.
    Please have a look at post#1.
     

    Chigch

    Senior Member
    Mongolian
    I need no more confirmation now, because I know, given all the comments here, that the author is indeed right.
    What made me doubt the author's judgment and ask more confirmation is the sentence in the second link given in pose#1.
     

    Wordnip

    Senior Member
    British English
    In my opinion the sentences should be rendered thus:

    1. The leaf, which since last Sunday has fallen from the tree, is red.
    2. The leaf, which has slowly fallen from the tree, is red.

    What rules of grammar can be deduced from such examples are beyond me!
     
    No one, including LV4, ever said the sentences were grammatical. And in any case, you should trust a (more or less) published paper by an
    expert over a single opinion-post in these forums.


    I need no more confirmation now, because I know, given all the comments here, that the author is indeed right.
    What made me doubt the author's judgment and ask more confirmation is the sentence in the second link given in pose#1.
     

    Chigch

    Senior Member
    Mongolian
    you should trust a (more or less) published paper by an
    expert over a single opinion-post in these forums.
    In fact, in many published linguistic papers, I saw some different opinions about the same sentences among different authors, especially where an ambiguous sentence is concerned. (I initially thought that the sentences containing 'fallen' in the article were somewhat ambiguous, and the author's conclusion was exclusive.)
     
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