The individual/the family.It's Franken-styn, Ein-styn but Wein-steen. Why and what decides?
These names are of German origin, and in German "stein" is always pronounced with the same vowel found in "fine" (/aɪ/). Occasionally, some of these names are pronounced with the same vowel found in "see" but I don't think there is a rule to this; ultimately, it depends on how the person says his or her name.
In the case of "Weinstein", there is already an "aj" sound before "stein", thus English-speakers find it very awkward and silly to say "Wajnstayn".It's Franken-styn, Ein-styn but Wein-steen. Why and what decides?
Unfortunately, there is no rule for this. When Germans immigrated to English-speaking countries, some families kept the German pronunciation, and others shifted the pronunciation.
These names are of German origin, and in German "stein" is always pronounced with the same vowel found in "fine" (/aɪ/). Occasionally, some of these names are pronounced with the same vowel found in "see" but I don't think there is a rule to this; ultimately, it depends on how the person says his or her name.
In the case of "Weinstein", there is already an "aj" sound before "stein", thus English-speakers find it very awkward and silly to say "Wajnstayn".
I agree that it ultimately comes down to how the person/family pronounces it, but I wonder if it has anything to do with Yiddish. It seems to me, albeit rather naively, that the [stin] pronunciations are more common in families of Jewish origin, or maybe those families who spoke Yiddish. Any thoughts to this? Does anyone know how German "ei" ([aɪ]) is pronounced in Yiddish?
That might just be a reflection of your residence in North America where many Jewish refugees went in the 1930s. There is nothing particularly Yiddish about "Stein", which means stone or rock and which appears in many German place names. Nobody should be surprised at the "ei" having varying pronunciation in anglicized forms of these names because the Germanic pronunciation is abnormal to English-speakers - it must be incredibly rare to find anybody in English-speaking societies pronouncing the "st" correctly as "sht".but I wonder if it has anything to do with Yiddish. It seems to me, albeit rather naively, that the [stin] pronunciations are more common in families of Jewish origin, or maybe those families who spoke Yiddish. Any thoughts to this? Does anyone know how German "ei" ([aɪ]) is pronounced in Yiddish?
Andygc said:Nobody should be surprised at the "ei" having varying pronunciation in anglicized forms of these names because the Germanic pronunciation is abnormal to English-speakers
- it must be incredibly rare to find anybody in English-speaking societies pronouncing the "st" correctly as "sht".
Yes, I'm absolutely sure, since the point of discussion is "ei" and, in order to pronounce them properly we anglicized the spelling of Rhein and wein to Rhine and wine. We also changed the pronunciation of neun as well as its spelling, but that came through "nigon" so isn't hugely relevant. My point is that an English speaker seeing a name that includes "stein" is unlikely to pronounce it with the original German pronunciation unless told how to pronounce it.Are you sure about that? We have a lot of [aɪ] words of Germanic origin, such as wine, nine, blind, brine, twine, etc. as well as words borrowed directly from German that retain [aɪ], such as the Rhine.
Your hypothesis might still be right, brian - maybe the vowel of Yiddish shteyn-to-rhyme-with-pain is more likely to turn into /i:/.In other words, there is no phonological/phonetic reason, e.g. due to some pronunciation difficulty, that it should change, hence why I thought the reason my be historical/dialectal.
Yes, sorry, I should have made that clear. No doubt the officials at Staten Island struggled with names like Weinstein (do I write that as vineshtine or do I say weensteen?), and many a migrant opted for the easy route of accepting a new way of pronouncing his name.Then in that case you're talking about orthography and not phonology, which I didn't realize at first.
... but not when the Wagner in question is the manager of a Premier League football club. At least, most of the TV commentators don't pronounce it that way. But what can you expect of commentators?in England we pronounce Wagner the German way Vaagner.
The thing I find hardest to understand is why each of the ein vowels might be pronounced differently?
A pattern is seen by John Algeo, professor of English at the University of Georgia. ''The German names are usually pronounced with an eye sound. Most of the Jewish names have had the American influence of the ee sound, as in the words weird or receive , particularly that ei after the letter c .'' Professor Algeo notes that, in Yiddish, a sound change occurred, with the ei pronounced as a long a , as in stain , but changed in American-influenced Yiddish to ee . ''The ending of stein , pronounced steen ,'' he concludes, ''reflects an American influence.''
That might just be a reflection of your residence in North America where many Jewish refugees went in the 1930s. There is nothing particularly Yiddish about "Stein", which means stone or rock and which appears in many German place names. Nobody should be surprised at the "ei" having varying pronunciation in anglicized forms of these names because the Germanic pronunciation is abnormal to English-speakers - it must be incredibly rare to find anybody in English-speaking societies pronouncing the "st" correctly as "sht".
Or when he is a US actor by the name of Robert Wagner....has anybody ever called him Robert Vaagner?... but not when the Wagner in question is the manager of a Premier League football club. At least, most of the TV commentators don't pronounce it that way. But what can you expect of commentators?
Right on (which we don't say either).And yet we in the UK have "TV chef", restaurater and author Rick Stein, pronounced "Stine." Go figure (as we don't say here).
Interesting - so John Algeo's theory echoes Brian's (post 8)And so, is Bernstein an ine or an een?
You might like to see this article from the New York Times: ON LANGUAGE; STINE OR STEEN?
Here's John Algeo's theory.
I have always said 'Qui ho te'.As far as I know, Americans pronounce the name of the famous composer as Vagner, more or less like German does. I am always surprised to hear English people pronounce Quixote with an x sound while Americans say Qui ho te. Certainly in the US there are names from so many different origins that go through so many permutations that you often just have to ask how to pronounce them.
I have always said 'Qui ho te'.
I agree, however. It is always best to ask how to pronounce names (of places, of people).
But not, presumably, with the adjective Quixotic.I have always said 'Qui ho te'.![]()
No.But not, presumably, with the adjective Quixotic.![]()