The pronunciation of ni

[karuna]

I just had a discussion with another Japanese language learner who said that if the syllabel ni as in words "nihongo, nipon, etc" were to be transcribed in Latvian writing, we should have write with soft ņ. For example ņihongo, ņipon. I am learning Japanese from Pimsleur audio recordings and although I can hear that this ni sound is softer than in English or other languages, I don't hear the soft Latvian ņi which is even more palatalized that Russian ни (ni).

Is my aquintaince wrong about the pronunciation or I just don't hear the pronunciation properly? I suspect that he is influenced by Russian speakers who always palatalize n sound before the wovel i whereas in Latvian you can say both ni and ņi, and Japanese ni would be somewhere between them.

 

[kvajak]

Maybe because the stress is not on the syllabel "ni", and it is read lightly and rapidly, so it makes one think that it may be palatalized. I think.
Mr. Karuna, have you ever watched a movie in Japanese? You may notice that when they say "nani? (means "what?")" the syllabel "ni" is very clearly heard, and no doubt that's not palatalized...
It's a pity that I've forgotten quite a lot of Japanese vocabulary...and could not be able to bring more examples for you
Hope such an answer could help you

 

[karuna]

Thanks Kvajak, for your answer. Indeed, such words as nani, ni clearly are not palatalized. I watched anime yesterday and I heard something like koņieko. I am not sure about the spelling because by context it had to be koneko (kitten) but I heard palatalized ņ.

 

[luckyguy]

I think native Japanese speaker are careless for pronunciation, comparing with other language speakers and they don't recognise phonetic difference: R/L, B/V, e/ae(a of "bag"), o/ao(a of "tall"),etc....
I don't know what the palatalized ņ is, but, possible to pronounce the palatalized ņ as n, or the voice artist wasn't a native speaker, or said in local accent.

 

[karuna]

Luckyguy, thanks for the answer. Could be there some positionally stimulated changes in the pronunciation? And what about postpostion o which in lyrics is almost always pronounced and transcribed as wo? Is it simply stylish to use archaic pronunciation in songs or are there some other reasons?

 

[luckyguy]

Luckyguy, thanks for the answer. Could be there some positionally stimulated changes in the pronunciation? And what about postpostion o which in lyrics is almost always pronounced and transcribed as wo? Is it simply stylish to use archaic pronunciation in songs or are there some other reasons?

There is no such changes in the pronunciation. The key vowels of Japanese are only five: あ, い, う, え, お(a, i, u, e, o).
In contemporary Japanese,を(wo) is a notation style which means to be a postpostion(case particle) and not use in the word, but its pronunciation is same as お(o).
However, in the ancient written style を(wo) had been used in the word.

For the exact reply you want, also the original lyrics should be posted.
I hope it helps.

 

[karuna]

There is no such changes in the pronunciation. The key vowels of Japanese are only five: あ, い, う, え, お(a, i, u, e, o).
In contemporary Japanese,を(wo) is a notation style which means to be a postpostion(case particle) and not use in the word, but its pronunciation is same as お(o).
However, in the ancient written style を(wo) had been used in the word.

For the exact reply you want, also the original lyrics should be posted.
I hope it helps.

Thanks Luckyguy,

Yes, it is about the postposition o.

http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/hikarunogo/hitominochikara.htm

The second line is kinou no yuraida kimochi wo nugisuteru tame ni
I also thought that this wo is simply a transcription quirk however if I listen the soundtrack carefully I hear a fully pronounced wo.

 

[luckyguy]

Thanks Luckyguy,

Yes, it is about the postposition o.

http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/hikarunogo/hitominochikara.htm

The second line is kinou no yuraida kimochi wo nugisuteru tame ni
I also thought that this wo is simply a transcription quirk however if I listen the soundtrack carefully I hear a fully pronounced wo.

I got point! I explain you the two points:
1) Transcription quirk for postpositions(case articles):wa, o
　The natives spell them は(ha), を(wo). But, pronounce wa, o.
　Two types of spelling way are considered to alphabetically express は, を.
　　-ha, wo (considering spelling)
　　-wa, o (considering pronounciation)
2) Deviation from regular pronounciation
　In popular song like J-pops, the actual pronounciation would daviate from regular
　pronounciation according to melody. This case is the one you pointed out.
　But, the writer didn't spell wo as intenting for such deviation.

　So you might heard:
　　　kuinohu nuo yuraeidua kuimouchi uo nuguisutueru tuame nui
　Some songs must be affected by English pronouciation.

 

[toscairn]

If you ask Japanese how they pronouce "wo (o)," their answers are split: half of them assert it's pronounced "o," the other half say "wo." As there's no distinction in Japanese between "o" and "wo" and both are accepted, it's your choice. You'll notice, however, younger generations prefer to pronounce "wo." It's in part influenced by English, in part for the sake of consistency with "wa" that isn't pronounced "a."
Some Japanese rockers influenced by Rock'n Roll in the 1980's began to intentionally pronounce "wo" as well as their efforts to make their pronunciation sound quite similar to that of English; prime example being Kesuke Kuwata of Southern All-stars. I heard the Beatles sounded quite American, I find quite an analogy here. But there may be regional differences: for example, people in Kanto might prefer "o" to "wo," though I wasn't able to find enough evidence to back this.

As for the palatalization of Japanese consonants, there's no distinction; so you could hear palatalized "n" from time to time.

"承認を得る　(to get approval) shonin wo eru" for example. I don't know if the "n" between "o" and "i" is sometimes palatalized or not, but I believe it could be. Nobody would say if someone pronounced it palatalized, "it's not an accepted pronunciation of the consonant 'n'!"

 

[toscairn]

If you ask Japanese how they pronouce "wo (o)," their answers are split: half of them assert it's pronounced "o," the other half say "wo." As there's no distinction in Japanese between "o" and "wo" and both are accepted, it's your choice. You'll notice, however, younger generations prefer to pronounce "wo." It's in part influenced by English, in part for the sake of consistency with "wa" that isn't pronounced "a."
Some Japanese rockers influenced by Rock'n Roll in the 1980's began to intentionally pronounce "wo" as well as their efforts to make their pronunciation sound quite similar to that of English; prime example being Kesuke Kuwata of Southern All-stars. I heard the Beatles sounded quite American, I find quite an analogy here. But there may be regional differences, for example, people in Kanto prefer "o" to "wo," though I wasn't able to find enough evidence to back this.

As for the palatalization of Japanese consonants, there's no distinction, so you could here palatalized "n" from time to time.

"承認を得る　(to get approval) shonin wo eru" for example. I don't know if the "n" between "o" and "i" is sometimes palatalized or not, but I believe it could be. Nobody would say if someone pronounced it palatalized, "it's not an accepted pronunciation of the consonant 'n'!"

 

[karuna]

Huh, it is much clearer now. I prefer to pronounce it without palatization for simplicity.

I can understand the difficulty to analize the pronunciation of a native language. If you would tell to a Latvian speaker that n in the word banga is different from n in the word nagi he wouldn't believe you because these differences in pronunciation are only positionally determined.

 

[luckyguy]

If you ask Japanese how they pronouce "wo (o)," their answers are split: half of them assert it's pronounced "o," the other half say "wo."

Do you mean the pronounciation for を (excepting a case in song or local accent)becomes into two types:o and wo????

 

[almostfreebird]

Generally native speakers pronounce を "o", not "wo".

Keisuke Kuwata(Kuwata Band) is the creator of pronouncing "wo", because it supposedly sounded cool, unique and accorded well with "Wow" or "Yeah".

Although a lot of singers(in Japan) copy that way,
it sounds mostly cheap ...in my humble opinion.

 

[toscairn]

To karuna: Exactly, your example is just like English "t" and "p," and in Japanese "t" too.
English, for example: picture (aspirated "p")
spin (non-aspirated "p")
The same can also be said of Japanese "t."

But these above aspects are known only to those with some phonetical knowledge. Most Japanese don't know how the particle を wo (o) is pronounced in the two ways: wo and o. Here's an interesting episode. One man was asked to pronouce を. He asserted his pronunciation of it was "o" but acturally it was heard as "wo" by the surveyor. I believe the opposite can be said of it. It's too subtle a difference (to how much you make your lips round) to correctly recognize which pronunciation comes out.

http://oshiete1.goo.ne.jp/kotaeru.php3?q=2036003

 

[luckyguy]

....But these above aspects are known only to those with some phonetical knowledge. Most Japanese don't know how the particle を wo (o) is pronounced in the two ways: wo and o. Here's an interesting episode. ....
http://oshiete1.goo.ne.jp/kotaeru.php3?q=2036003

I recognize some deviation from the standard pronounciation can be possible. But, that's absolutely a new to me!! Interesting! Thank you for posting.