The use of subjunctive in modern greek

[larshgf]

Hello,
I would appreciate very much if somebody could give me (a link or reference to) an overview of the use of subjunctive in modern greek.
BR Lars

 

[Perseas]

Hi Lars,
Subjunctive is a wide topic; this link gives information about all moods.
Οι εγκλίσεις του ρήματος στα Νέα Ελληνικά

 

[larshgf]

Hi Perseas,
Thank you for the link!
I am trying to translate to english the text concerning Subjunktive. How will you translate:
παραχώρηση και λέγεται παραχαρωτική υποτακτική
(παραχαρωτική is not in my dictionary)

 

[Perseas]

It is meant obviously "παραχωρητική" from "παραχώρηση". In English "concessive".

 

[Helleno File]

Hi Lars,
Subjunctive is a wide topic; this link gives information about all moods.
Οι εγκλίσεις του ρήματος στα Νέα Ελληνικά

I've just tried to follow the link and Norton warns this is a "malicious site" so have not continued. I thought the Greek subjunctive was difficult but not malicious! χαχα.

On a serious note can anyone confirm the site is safe?

 

[dmtrs]

I've been there and back -following the given link. Avast did not object, plus my computer and I feel fine.
(And it seems a really extensive and serious work on a variety of things apart the subjunctive.)

 

[larshgf]

I've just tried to follow the link and Norton warns this is a "malicious site" so have not continued. I thought the Greek subjunctive was difficult but not malicious! χαχα.

On a serious note can anyone confirm the site is safe?

No problem with BitDefender either!

 

[larshgf]

According to a greek grammer of mine - verbs of "kowledge and meaning" is connected to subjunctive. The book gives 2 examples:
δεν πιστεύω να κάνω λάθος
- I dont think I make a mistake
ξέρω να κολυμπώ καλά
- I am a god swimmer

Do you think that the following verbs belongs in the same category and can be connected to subjunctive?
μαθαίνω
καταλαβαίνω
σκέφτομαι
νομίζω
θυμάμαι

BR Lars

 

[dmtrs]

δεν πιστεύω να κάνω λάθος - but also: δεν πιστεύω ότι/πως είναι αλήθεια
ξέρω να κολυμπώ καλά - but also: ξέρω ότι/πως είναι ακριβό
μαθαίνω να κολυμπώ - but also: έμαθα ότι/πως έφυγε
σκέφτομαι να φύγω - but also: σκέφτομαι ότι/πως είναι αργά
θυμάμαι να του τηλεφωνήσω όποτε γιορτάζει - but also: θυμάμαι ότι γιορτάζει το Μάιο
δε νομίζω να πειράχτηκε (almost exclusively when the verb is in negative form) - but mainly: νομίζω ότι/πως κάνεις λάθος
κατάλαβες να πειράχτηκε; / δεν κατάλαβα να πειράχτηκε (usually when the verb is in negative form) - but mainly: κατάλαβα ότι/πως πειράχτηκε

As you see, the verbs you mention can be used with subjunctive (some of them under conditions), but all of them can be used with indicative, of course.

 

[larshgf]

Thank you dmtrs!
Do you by chance know other verbs that can be included in the group "verbs of meaning and knowledge" ?
What about.....
Σκοπεύω να πάω στην Κρήτη το καλοκαίρι.
Επιμένει να καπνίζει, αν και ο γιατρός τού είπε να κόψει το κάπνισμα.
Λέω να φύγω νωρίς σήμερα.

 

[Perseas]

Thank you dmtrs!
Do you by chance know other verbs that can be included in the group "verbs of meaning and knowledge" ?
What about.....
Σκοπεύω να πάω στην Κρήτη το καλοκαίρι.
Επιμένει να καπνίζει, αν και ο γιατρός τού είπε να κόψει το κάπνισμα.
Λέω να φύγω νωρίς σήμερα.

You are right.

BTW, all those are examples of the subjunctive in subordinate nominal clauses. This kind of nominal clauses is called "βουλητικές προτάσεις".

There are many verbs, not only verbs of meaning and knowledge, on which the "βουλητικές προτάσεις" depend. It's also notable that some of those verbs can have other structures too. For example, "δέχομαι ότι αυτό που λες είναι σωστό", "δέχομαι ένα δώρο".

δέχομαι: Δέχτηκε να μου δανείσει μερικά χρήματα.
θέλω: Ήθελα να σου πω κάτι.
επιθυμώ: Αυτός επιθυμεί να τον υπηρετούν.
προσπαθώ: Προσπαθώ να κάνω ό,τι μπορώ.
ειδοποιώ: Τον ειδοποίησες να έρθει;
προσφέρομαι: Προσφέρθηκα να τη βοηθήσω.
φροντίζω: Φρόντισε να έχεις τελειώσει τις δουλειές σου μέχρι το απόγευμα.
οφείλω: Οφείλεις να μου δώσεις μια εξήγηση.
αρκούμαι: Αρκέστηκα να γράψω δυο λέξεις μόνο.
ντρέπομαι: Ντρέπεται να του μιλήσει.
αξίζω: Δεν αξίζει να λυπάσαι.
καταφέρνω: Κατάφερα να φτάσω πρώτος.
μπορώ: Μπορείς να με βοηθήσεις;
ξέρω: Ξέρεις να κολυμπάς;
ξεχνώ: Μη ξεχάσεις να αγοράσεις το εισιτήριο.
συνηθίζω: Συνηθίζει να ξυπνάει πολύ νωρίς.
αισθάνομαι: Αισθάνεται να ξυπνάει μέσα της ο έρωτας.
φαίνομαι: Δε φαίνεστε να συμφωνείτε.
ακούω: Ούτε μια φορά δεν τον άκουσα να μιλάει γι' αυτό το θέμα.
κουράζομαι: Κουράστηκα να περιμένω.
αρχίζω: Άρχισε να βρέχει.
παύω: Από σήμερα παύει να είναι πρόεδρος.
προλαβαίνω: Δεν πρόλαβα να ετοιμαστώ.

And many more.

 

[larshgf]

Thank you Perseas. I will try to understand the difference between βουλευτικές (will) and τελικές (final) sentences.

 

[dmtrs]

I will try to understand the difference between βουλευτικές (will) and τελικές (final) sentences.

First, the term is βουλητικές (not βουλευτικές).
Second, the clue that might help you distinguish between the two is that, while both kinds of sentences can begin with να, the βουλητικό να is different to the τελικό να. The latter can be always replaced by για να. Therefore, if you can replace the να with για να the sentence is τελική, otherwise βουλητική:
Θέλω να φύγω. / Θέλω για να φύγω. -> βουλητική
Ήρθα να σε δω. / Ήρθα για να σε δω. -> τελική
I do not know if you can tell when the use of για να is not plausible, but if you do, the problem is solved.

 

[larshgf]

Thank you dmtrs!
So both of these two types of subordinary clauses have subjunctive with να (βουλητικές) or για να (τελικές).
Can we make the conclusion that every time we can create an infinitive in english we have a subjunctive in greek? (Then we dont need to remember the different groups of verbs after which we have subjunctive: modal, impersonal, "knowledge and meaning" etc).

 

[dmtrs]

You are welcome, larshgf.

Can we make the conclusion that every time we can create an infinitive in english we have a subjunctive in greek?

I think it's totally correct.

Then we dont need to remember the different groups of verbs after which we have subjunctive: modal, impersonal, "knowledge and meaning" etc

In fact, maybe it's not so important to distinguish between indicative and subjunctive in modern Greek, since subjunctive is formed by να (για να and few other, more rare, conjunctions) and the indicative; as far as you know what you want to say, the kind of sentence you need to use in order to express it determines the conjunction you need to use (be it ότι or να or whatever) and then you use the verb in 'indicative'.
But then maybe it's difficult for a foreigner to follow this way of thinking without resorting to theory... I don't know.

 

[Perseas]

Can we make the conclusion that every time we can create an infinitive in english we have a subjunctive in greek?

Mostly infinitive or sometimes gerund:
I want to leave - θέλω να φύγω
It stopped raining - σταμάτησε να βρέχει.

In any case, "βουλητικές" are nominal clauses (or complement clauses), not adverbial. That is, they function as nouns. After verbs followed by "βουλητικές", we can add a nominal phrase, e.g. "Θέλω ένα ποτήρι νερό". "Τελικές" (final clauses), by constrast, are adverbial clauses and denote the purpose.

βουλευτικές βουλητικές (will) ...

"Βουλητικές" derives from the verb βούλομαι (not used in M.Gr.) which means "I will". But such clauses also depend on verbs of wishing, planning, desiring, requesting, ordering, feeling, visual/auditory perception, etc.

 

[Helleno File]

"Βουλητικές" derives from the verb βούλομαι (not used in M.Gr.) which means "I will".

Didn't know that - so presumably Βουλή is connected with the will of the people?

 

[Perseas]

Didn't know that - so presumably Βουλή is connected with the will of the people?

Nowadays yes , but as I read, βουλή was an Homeric word and then it referred to the "will/determination of gods/kings/nobles".
Here's the definition by Liddell-Scott:
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, β , βουκόλ-ησις , βουλή

Also, by "Βουλή" (capital B), one understands the Parliament (Institution/Members/Building).

 

[Olaszinhok]

Hello!
I have got a question about the Subjuctive mood in modern Greek. Unfortunately I don't speak Greek at all. However, I am wondering whether in modern Greek the different subjunctive tenses have their own endings, like in the Indicative mood, for instance, or you make use of analytical forms by means of auxiliaries or particles to conjugate the subjunctive tenses and distinguish them from the Indicative ones?
Thank you in advance for your kind reply.

 

[larshgf]

In modern greek to form the subjunctive the particle να (and a few more particles) are used together with the indicative form in imperfective and perfective. In archaic greek however, there is a specific morphology for subjunctive.

 

[Αγγελος]

In modern greek to form the subjunctive the particle να (and a few more particles) are used together with the indicative form in imperfective and perfective. In archaic greek however, there is a specific morphology for subjunctive.

The present subjunctive is the same as the present indicative.
The aorist subjunctive has the same endings, but uses a different stem.
The difference between the two is not one of time, but of aspect: the present subjunctive expresses an act or a process that is unfolding or repeated; the aorist subjunctive expresses an act that will be done and finished.
Present subjunctive: the doctor allowed me να πίνω λίγο κρασί (=to drink a little wine regularly or occasionally)
Aorist subjunctive: the doctor allowed me να πιω λίγο κρασί (=to drink a little wine on one occasion, e.g. at my daughter's wedding)