The use of verbal nouns in Turkish

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AngieRZ

Senior Member
Serbian
Hello dear people,

In one of my books says that dık and acak as forms for verbal nouns don't go with repeated actions or actions that describe process that lasts. It means that I can use dık and acak only when something happens once. Is that statement correct and if it is, what do I use instead?
So if the sentence goes in English like this:
I am proud of the fact that he is working for charity this summer.
Or that he will be working for charity this summer
Which verbal noun should I use for repeated actions or some process that lasts?
Considering that topic, If you have any short explanation to know how to differ and when to use which verbal noun in Turkish, it would mean a lot, because it is stopping me from talking in Turkish and that makes me sad.

Çok teşekkür ederim, arkadaşlarım.
 
  • Rallino

    Moderatoúrkos
    Turkish
    I am proud of the fact that he is working for charity this summer. = Bu yaz hayır işi yapıyor olmasından gurur duyuyorum.
    I am proud of the fact that he will be working for charity this summer. = Bu yaz hayır işi yapacak olmasından gurur duyuyorum.

    I don't understand your question about "happening only once".
    Çok teşekkür ederim, arkadaşlarım.
    Нема на ћему.
     

    AngieRZ

    Senior Member
    Serbian
    I am proud of the fact that he is working for charity this summer. = Bu yaz hayır işi yapıyor olmasından gurur duyuyorum.
    I am proud of the fact that he will be working for charity this summer. = Bu yaz hayır işi yapacak olmasından gurur duyuyorum.

    I don't understand your question about "happening only once".

    Нема на ћему.
    Thank you very much for this translation, Rallino :)
    Well, it says that dık and acak as verbal nouns cannot be used for a continuous action, it has to be something that we describe that doesn't involve process, something that happens at one moment. Your translation proves what is written in the book because you used yapıyor olmasından and yapacak olmasından, both of them with verbal noun ma/me with possessive suffixes. But could we write - Bu yaz hayır işinde çalışacağı için gurur duyuyorum? And if not, could you explain why not or the difference between sentences? And please tell me why did you put olmak with hayır işi yapmak + olmak 🙄😵😐
    Yardımlarınız için çok teşekkür ederim
     

    AngieRZ

    Senior Member
    Serbian
    Hello AngieRZ,



    Are there any examples given in your book?
    Yes, there are.
    1. Ayşe'nin derslere gitmesine şaşıyorum.
    (İt says that it is gitmesine here (verbal noun ma/me) because of the continuous, repeated action, and that's why we cannot use verbal noun with dık and acak)
    2. Ayşe'nin derslere gittiğine eminim.
    (We use verbal noun dık because it is going to happen once, now or this day, and it is a non repeated action, or action at the moment of speaking)
    3. Ayşe'nin derslere gideceğine eminim.
    (Again, it is gideceğine because it says that they mean as a single action, some precise future action)

    İ just translated what says in the book.

    So my question is, if gitmesine here describes that something is repeating, do İ use it for past, future and present tense or if İ don't then what should İ use?
    Do İ only change the last verb as İ wrote down in the examples and please note that the next examples aren't from the book, but they are related to my question:
    Past tense - Ayşe'nin derslere gitmesine şaşırdım. ?
    Future tense - Ayşe'nin derslere gitmesine şaşıracağım. ?

    Also, can't İ write for example:
    Gitmesini istemedim ? (Because this is one moment action, nothing that repeats)
    Or do İ have to write Gittiğini istemedim (according to the book) ?
    Which one is correct and why?

    And if İ understood correctly, İ use gittiğine for present and past that involves one single action, gideceğine for future that also involves one single action that doesn't repeat?
    Also my examples:
    Onun gittiğine saşırdım. ?
    Onun gideceğine şaşıracağım. ?

    İf none of these sentences that İ wrote are correct İ would like someone to write and explain why. Please, friends, İ am really confused.
    Also, İ would be really thankful if İ could get the grammar explanation for yapacak olmasından, why is it like that, and why do we have to use olmak in the sentence that Rallino gave me as translation to my first example - Bu yaz hayır işi yapacak olmasından gurur duyuyorum.

    Thank you very very much!!!
     
    Last edited:

    AngieRZ

    Senior Member
    Serbian
    if İ could get the grammar explanation for "yapacak olmasından "
    that they wil have been doing
    İ know the translation, because Rallino translated that from he will be working, as İ wrote in my first message, İ don't understand why do İ have construction yapacak olmasından, and why do İ have olmak in that construction at all.

    Can anyone help me with the questions that İ have asked, lütfen? 😞
     

    LeBro

    Member
    Turkish
    I think that verbal nouns have nothing to do with the duration, completion or repetation of an action. It actually reminds me of one of the characteristics of Slavic languages, i.e. “vid glagola”. But It is another story. Let’s look at the examples and the explanations given in your book;

    1. Ayşe'nin derslere gitmesine şaşıyorum.
    (İt says that it is gitmesine here (verbal noun ma/me) because of the continuous, repeated action, and that's why we cannot use verbal noun with dık and acak)
    A sentence like “Ayşe’ nin derslere gittiğine inanamıyorum” is also possible.

    “Ayşe’nin derse gitmesine şaşırdım”; As you can see, I used the form “gitmesine” and the reference here is not to any continuous or repeated action, but to a single completed action. As I said earlier, duration, etc. have nothing to do with verbal nouns.

    2. Ayşe'nin derslere gittiğine eminim.
    (We use verbal noun dık because it is going to happen once, now or this day, and it is a non repeated action, or action at the moment of speaking)
    Well, what I get from this sentence is that Ayşe had attended/has been attending (all) the classes, therefore what is written in your books seems wrong to me.

    Another example;

    Onun (hep) bu restorana gittiğini biliyorum; Again, we are talking about her/his habit of going to the same restaurant.

    3. Ayşe'nin derslere gideceğine eminim.
    (Again, it is gideceğine because it says that they mean as a single action, some precise future action)
    Here, again, it is not about a single action but repetitive actions because Ayşe will attend all the classes. But if the sentence were “Ayşe’nin derse gideceğine eminim”, then i would say that it is about a single action. Nevertheless, as I have already stated, verbal nouns have nothing to do with the duration, completion, etc. of the verb.

    Also, can't İ write for example:
    Gitmesini istemedim ? (Because this is one moment action, nothing that repeats)
    Or do İ have to write Gittiğini istemedim (according to the book) ?
    Which one is correct and why?
    Gitmesini istemedim: It is OK (I didn’t want her/him to go/leave) but not because of one moment action, nothing that repeats.

    Gittiğini istemedim: It is wrong. You can say for example “gittiğini görmedim/duymadım./fark etmedim...”

    I am not a linguist, nor do I have education in teaching Turkish but I have never heard that verbal nouns have such an intrinsic feature in Turkish. My best take for now is that it might be the case that the verb itself might govern the form of the verbal noun (Ex: gitmesini istemek, but gittiğini görmek). It certainly requires further reading on this subject but I hope other friends here will also make contribution to what I/we have written so far.

    Lastly, could you please tell which book you use.
     

    AngieRZ

    Senior Member
    Serbian
    İ see that this is a pretty complicated topic to talk about...
    Lebro, thank you very much for this detailed answer, regarding my concern.
    The book that İ have is in Croatian language - Gramatika suvremenoga turskoga jezika - Ekrem Čaušević. P.S. You've probably noticed that İ'm from Serbia, so İ've understood what you meant by - vid glagola. İ also happen to have a dozen of other books regarding Turkish language, İ just didn't have time to go through them yet.

    İ think that İ understood the point of the things that you have written.
    Also, İ translate verbal noun dık and acak with - the fact that.
    E.g. You don't like the fact that İ'm going there.
    Oraya gideceğimi beğenmiyorsun.
    But İ think İ could also say:
    Benim gitmemi beğenmiyorsun.
    Can't İ?

    İ think that somebody should write more about this topic, it is really a tricky one and İ would really like to learn when to use which. İf possible, İ would like to know how you natives differ these things and know when to use which.


    What was also confusing was that - yapacak olmasından, back in our writing here, why do İ have to use olmak in these sentences:
    I am proud of the fact that he is working for charity this summer. = Bu yaz hayır işi yapıyor olmasından gurur duyuyorum.
    I am proud of the fact that he will be working for charity this summer. = Bu yaz hayır işi yapacak olmasından gurur duyuyorum.

    Dear people, please write more about this if you have time. 🍀🤗
     

    Rallino

    Moderatoúrkos
    Turkish
    İ think that İ understood the point of the things that you have written.
    Also, İ translate verbal noun dık and acak with - the fact that.
    E.g. You don't like the fact that İ'm going there.
    Oraya gideceğimi beğenmiyorsun.
    But İ think İ could also say:
    Benim gitmemi beğenmiyorsun.
    Can't İ?
    Those sentences don't sound idiomatic. We would say oraya gidiyor olmam hoşuna gitmiyor ; oraya gidecek olmam hoşuna gitmiyor. If you don't use olmak, it sounds like it happens all the time. Oraya gitmem hoşuna gitmiyor = You don't like the fact that I go there (generally).
    Turkish is ambiguous when it comes to relative clauses. The temporal information is lost in most cases and the meaning depends on the context. But sometimes we feel like giving more information. In that case we use -iyor olmak = to be doing, -ecek olmak = will be doing; -miş olmak = to have done.
    You can also say oraya gitmiş olmam hoşuna gitmiyor. = you don't like the fact that I went there. Because, simply saying gitmem doesn't indicate whether or not I already went there or will go there.

    "Oraya gideceğimi beğenmiyorsun" simply doesn't make sense in Turkish. You can say something like yaptığımı beğenmiyorsun. It works with a transitive verb, and the hidden word is yaptığım (şeyi) beğenmiyorsun = You don't like the thing that I've done (You don't like what I've done). That's fine. And even in this context, you can say: yapmış olduğum şeyi beğenmiyorsun, or yapıyor olduğum şeyi beğenmiyorsun if you really feel like adding temporal information. So, with transitive verbs, you can drop the şeyi, and it's still fine. However, this doesn't work at all with an intransitive verb: gitmeni beğeniyorum doesn't make any sense. Gideceğimi beğenmiyorsun is ungrammatical, because beğenmek requires the noun form and not the -diği/-eceği form. Some verbs require the -diği/-eceği; while others the noun form (be it -me or -iş). For instance we would say gittiğimi görüyorsun, but gitmemi istiyorsun. (you cannot say *gitmemi görüyorsun or *gittiğimi istiyorsun.)

    So beğenmek is quite a bad verb to work with, because, apart from the usage above where you can drop out the "şeyi", it is only ever used with -iş: Keman çalışını beğeniyorum. and that would mean I like how she plays the violin. If you want to say I like the fact that she plays the violin, you will have to say keman çalması / çalıyor olması hoşuma gidiyor (sviđa mi se). (*Keman çalmasını beğeniyorum is a very bad sentence; and it's not clear what you're trying to say) So the topic is further complicated because of your verb choice unfortunately.
     
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    messybricks

    New Member
    English
    if İ could get the grammar explanation for "yapacak olmasından "
    that they wil have been doing
    This was a subject that was very confusing to me when I was learning Turkish because the -acak olmak, -ıyor olmak, -mış olmak and -ar olmak forms are not explained in Turkish language textbooks and courses. They get covered in linguistic grammar books, but these are not accessible to the average Turkish language learner.

    I created posts on my website, TurkishTextbook.com with easy-to-understand grammar explanations of each of these grammar topics:

    -acak olmak
    -ıyor olmak
    -mış olmak
    -ar olmak

    If you read any of those posts and still have questions, feel free to reply here with your questions or leave a comment on the article itself.
     
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