the way (that) a Japanese feels is the more ...

cheshire

Senior Member
Catholic (Cat-holic, not Catholic)
However I think there's no exact rule, that it actually comes down to the way a Japanese feels is the more comfortable way to say something
Could you tell me if the underlined part is what a native speaker would write? I thought "that" can't be omitted between "way" and "a."

the way (that) a Japanese feels is...
 
  • cheshire

    Senior Member
    Catholic (Cat-holic, not Catholic)
    You could omit the relative pronoun "that" only when it is used as a mini object. In this case "that" is a mini subject.
    The embedded (inserted) phrase "a Japanese feels" makes you feel as if this phrase is an equivalent of "that"...doesn't it?
     

    panjandrum

    Lapsed Moderator
    English-Ireland (top end)
    I'm not familiar with the concept of mini object/ mini subject - so I won't comment on that.
    The sentence has been troubling me for other reasons. It's too long and it is somehow tangled - but I think I can explain now.

    However, I think <that> there's no exact rule.
    Comma after however.
    I would prefer to break the long sentence in two here.

    It actually comes down to the way a Japanese feels ...
    Now here's the problem. It doesn't come down to the way a Japanese feels or even the way that a Japanese feels. It comes down to how comfortable a Japanese feels about ...

    The difficulty is that you intend "the way" to mean "the way something is said", but placing "the way" where it is in the sentence makes the reader (well, this reader) think "the way" refers to the feelings of the Japanese.

    So here is an alternative sentence

    It actually comes down to how comfortable a Japanese feels about each way of saying something.
     

    cheshire

    Senior Member
    Catholic (Cat-holic, not Catholic)
    the way a Japanse feels=the way in which a Japanese feels:confused:

    I thought...

    "for" is often omitted in "for three months." Similarly, isn't "in" occasionally omitted in "in the way"?

    I do business the way Russian Oligarchs do.​

    I met Mr Todd who was a businessman.
    SVO (O=s=who, that [subject])
    _sv

    I met a man (whom) Judy slapped.
    SVO (O=o=that, whom, who, etc.[object])
    osv
     

    Thomas Tompion

    Senior Member
    English - England
    I'm a bit worried about the more in your sentence, Cheshire. Strictly the comparative means we are only looking at two possible ways of saying whatever it is. Panj has gestured towards this with his each way. If you are considering more than two possibilities you need to change Panj's formula to something like It actually comes down to how comfortable a Japanese feels about different ways of saying something, or you could say the different ways of saying something, if you've already considered them in some detail.

    My answers to the questions implied in your last post (5) would be yes to each.
     

    cheshire

    Senior Member
    Catholic (Cat-holic, not Catholic)
    :) Thank you!

    The difficulty is that you intend "the way" to mean "the way something is said", but placing "the way" where it is in the sentence makes the reader (well, this reader) think "the way" refers to the feelings of the Japanese.

    So here is an alternative sentence

    It actually comes down to how comfortable a Japanese feels about each way of saying something.
    I'm terribly sorry, but could anybody explain a bit more about the red part?
     

    Thomas Tompion

    Senior Member
    English - England
    :) Thank you!


    I'm terribly sorry, but could anybody explain a bit more about the red part?
    I'll have a go, Cheshire. Your original sentence was:

    However I think there's no exact rule, that it actually comes down to the way a Japanese feels is the more comfortable way to say something


    If you say 'it actually comes down to the way a Japanese feels' people think you are talking about a Japanese person's feelings. That's how the sentence starts, so it's the initial impression given. You then say 'is the more comfortable way to say something', so the reader has to correct his initial impression that you are talking about the feelings of the Japanese person, and take on board that you are talking about the reaction of the Japanese person to different ways of saying something. You force him to readjust in the middle of the sentence.

    Panj, if I understand him correctly, is very understandably recommending that you avoid the possibilities of misunderstanding by rephrasing the sentence, so that it doesn't send the reader on that initial false trail.
     

    cheshire

    Senior Member
    Catholic (Cat-holic, not Catholic)
    However I think there's no exact rule, that it actually comes down to the way a Japanese feels is the more comfortable way to say something
    Let me propose an exchange test: could you come up with any nouns that can be exchanged in the similar sentence type? (That kind of sentence type in which a relative pronoun can be omitted)?
     

    Thomas Tompion

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Let me propose an exchange test: could you come up with any nouns that can be exchanged in the similar sentence type? (That kind of sentence type in which a relative pronoun can be omitted)?
    Cheshire, the sentence is contorted.

    Why don't you say?

    However, I think there's no exact rule; that it actually comes down to the way a Japanese feels most comfortable saying something.
     

    cheshire

    Senior Member
    Catholic (Cat-holic, not Catholic)
    To rephrase my question,

    I was not interested in the particular sentence.
    I was (and am) interested in knowing the sentence type.

    I don't need a better sentence (though it is helpful and I appreciate it, but it's not my main concern here).

    What I need is a grammatical answer, not particular sentences.
     

    kenny4528

    Senior Member
    Mandarin, Taiwan
    I am not sure of what you really mean, cheshire, but:arrow:

    The Internet has changed the way in which we communicate with others.
    or
    The Internet has changed the way that we communicate with others.
    or
    The Internet has changed the way we communicate with others.
     

    cheshire

    Senior Member
    Catholic (Cat-holic, not Catholic)
    R=relative pronoun

    SVRsv

    Usually, R can be omitted only if R is a dative or an accusative of [sv].

    This sentence in #1 seems to break this rule.

    1.What would be the reason for it?
    2. Are there any other sentences that's possible like it? Is the sentence in #1 a peculiar sentence?
     

    kenny4528

    Senior Member
    Mandarin, Taiwan
    Could you tell me if the underlined part is what a native speaker would write? I thought "that" can't be omitted between "way" and "a."

    the way (that) a Japanese feels is...
    Just a try:)

    I don't think your sentence breaks the rule, but it seems to be grammatically incorrect:

    However, I think there's no exact rule. thatWhat it actually comes down to the way a Japanese feels is(main verb) the more comfortable way to say something.
    the way a Japanese feels =Japanese feels in the way
    the way is an accusative

    wait for other comments:cool:
     

    LV4-26

    Senior Member
    Hello cheshire,

    1)
    Is your concern still the same as in your post #3? In other words, is it still about the relative pronoun omission?

    2)
    As has been said, the way the sample sentence is worded is strongly ambiguous and even misleading. And we can't reasonably answer your concern about 1) if we don't make 2) clear.

    2 underlying structures possible (The words in red are the ones that will be replaced by the later-omitted that)
    A : the one that is obvioulsy intended
    S1 : It all comes down to the way
    S2 : A Japanese feels this way is the most comfortable

    B : the one that is actually understood, at least up to the middle of the clause.
    S1 : as above
    S2 : A Japanese feels this way.
    Of course (as has been already said), the listener finally understands interpretation B doesn't work, when he hears the end of the sentence. But only then.

    3)
    However, coming back to my first point, whatever the interpretation you pick, the that can be omitted..
    ..In B obviously, because it is indeed the object of feel
    In A as well, because it is not the subject of feel, but the subject of is.

    In other words, if you can say such a thing as...
    (1) That's the policy I think is the most reasonable
    ...there's no grammatical reason to stop you from omitting that in your original sentence.

    In the end, I think your main concern comes down to wondering whether sentences like (1) above are grammatical or not. Right?
     

    cheshire

    Senior Member
    Catholic (Cat-holic, not Catholic)
    You always come to rescue us, Ripley!
    In the end, I think your main concern comes down to wondering whether sentences like (1) above are grammatical or not. Right?
    I knew from panjandrum's answer that the sentence is correct.
    What I wanted to know further was it was unique to that phrase or not.

    I think (that) SV. ---> S I think V.

    Where's "that" gone to?:confused:
     

    panjandrum

    Lapsed Moderator
    English-Ireland (top end)
    Please note that I did not say that the sentence was correct, I said it was long and somehow tangled. I explained why and offered an alternative. (post #4)

    I did, however, say that omitting that in the original sentence was OK. (post #2)

    I think (that) it is acceptable to omit that in many other contexts.
    I hear (that) you are going on holiday tomorrow.
    I told you (that) you needed a new passport.
    I was sure (that) you weren't listening at the time.
    My X-ray shows (that) no bones were broken.
    They say (that) bruises heal reasonably quickly.
     

    LV4-26

    Senior Member
    cheshire said:
    Where's "that" gone to?
    Well, there are 2 "that" here.
    1.The conjunction :
    A Japanese feels that this way is the most comfortable

    I think that this policy is the most reasonable.

    2. And the relative pronoun.
    The way that a Japanese feels comfortable
    The policy that I think reasonable

    While you can choose to omit or keep the relative pronoun, you just have to omit the conjunction in this grammatical context. Otherwise, you'd get a sentence like :
    That's the policy (that) I think that (it?) is the most reasonable
    which just doesn't sound either right or comprehensible.

    Where has it gone? It's been sent to the land nothingness. :)
     

    LV4-26

    Senior Member
    panjandrum said:
    [...]I think (that) it is acceptable to omit that in many other contexts.[...]
    Do you agree that, in sentences like...
    It actually comes down to the pronunciation that a Japanese feels (is the) most comfortable
    (to avoid using the exact original sentence which is admittedly problematic for the reasons we all pointed out).
    ...the that that stays (but could have been removed) is the relative pronoun, not the conjunction?

    The answer seems obvious but I'm asking this because we seem to no longer know which "that" we're dealing with (posts #21 and 22)..
    I insist that the conjunction "that" in your quoted sentence would just have to go in a structure similar to cheshire's.

    (1)I think that this word can be omitted ===>
    (2) This is the word that I think can be omitted

    Also, cheshire's original doubts originated from rules regarding the omission of the relative pronoun.
     

    panjandrum

    Lapsed Moderator
    English-Ireland (top end)
    I'm drowning in a grammatical sea, but if I clutch at LV's sentence:
    It actually comes down to the pronunciation that a Japanese feels is the most comfortable.
    I prefer the sentence with the relative pronoun because I tend to use them rather than not, but I could leave it out if I felt like it.
     

    kenny4528

    Senior Member
    Mandarin, Taiwan
    I think that this word can be omitted ===>
    This is the word that I think can be omitted
    This is the word that I think can be omitted.:arrow:
    Is it possible to be cleft sentence?(I remembered I had read)
    It puts more emphasis on word than other parts of this sentence.

    I think that this word can be omitted ===>
    This word that I think can be omitted
    :confused:
     

    LV4-26

    Senior Member
    I'm drowning in a grammatical sea, but if I clutch at LV's sentence:
    It actually comes down to the pronunciation that a Japanese feels is the most comfortable.
    I prefer the sentence with the relative pronoun because I tend to use them rather than not, but I could leave it out if I felt like it.
    Plus, leaving it in the original sentence might partly solve the problem, even though the sentence would remain a bit long and tangled ===>
    However I think there's no exact rule, that it actually comes down to the way that a Japanese feels is the more comfortable way to say something

    Why so? Because we hardly ever say "the way that I feel", but rather "the way I feel". Therefore, that would leave less room to misinterpretation...I think..
    However, I insist that this would have everything to do with improving communication and nothing to do with pure syntax. i.e. in other semantic contexts with the same kind of syntactic structure, as said and illustrated before, the relative pronoun could be removed.
     

    kenny4528

    Senior Member
    Mandarin, Taiwan
    However I think there's no exact rule, that it actually comes down to the way that a Japanese feels is the more comfortable way to say something

    By the way, I wonder if this comma is correct? :confused:

    Edit-- I see, it is correct.------
    My eyes blurred.:eek:
     

    cheshire

    Senior Member
    Catholic (Cat-holic, not Catholic)
    Thank you everyone.
    I may have confused most of you on the way here.
    My question seems to have arisen from my misunderstanding that "a Japanese feels" is an inserted phrase, and that "that" in [O (relative pronoun) that V] can't be omitted.
    As our Ripley has pointed out, the underlying sentence was "a Japanese feels that SV."
     

    LV4-26

    Senior Member
    My own non-native reaction (the natives' may be different): it sounds like a good solution. Then, it would go something like :
    [...] It actually comes down to what a Japanese feels is the most comfortable way of saying/to say something.
     

    cheshire

    Senior Member
    Catholic (Cat-holic, not Catholic)
    I already know the asnwer I think is reasonable, thanks to our Ripley.

    1 The mouse that is evil
    2 The mouse (that) I caught yesterday

    1 This "that" can't be omitted, because it's a subject.
    2 This "that" can be omitted, because it's an object.

    3 I think that this mouse is yummy.
    4 the mouse (that) I think is yummy.

    4 This "that" can be omitted for the same reason as 2.
     

    _forumuser_

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Yes, no doubt about that. But what's wrong with your sample sentence is the repetition of "the way". That must be eliminated.

    But what it comes down to, after all, is the answer you think is the reasonable answer....So never mind. :)
     

    kenny4528

    Senior Member
    Mandarin, Taiwan
    I already know the asnwer I think is reasonable, thanks to our Ripley.

    4 the mouse I think is yummy.

    4 This "that" can be omitted for the same reason as 2.
    As far as I know, I think in this sentence can also be considered as a parenthesis.
    The mouse I think is yummy.= The mouse, I think, is yummy.

    Any comments?
     

    LV4-26

    Senior Member
    kenny4528, if you misquote our examples by removing a word or two, even one between brackets, you change the meaning and they no longer make any sense.
    kenny4528 said:
    cheshire said:
    [...]
    4 the mouse I think is yummy.
    [...]
    cheshire's actual words said:
    [...] 4 the mouse (that) I think is yummy.[...]
    (my emphasis)
    Which makes a huge difference : the latter (even though it may not be the most appropriate example in the world) does illustrate the topic at hand, i.e. complement clauses embedded in relative clauses.
     

    kenny4528

    Senior Member
    Mandarin, Taiwan
    kenny4528, if you misquote our examples by removing a word or two, even one between brackets, you change the meaning and they no longer make any sense.

    (my emphasis)
    Which makes a huge difference : the latter (even though it may not be the most appropriate example in the world) does illustrate the topic at hand, i.e. complement clauses embedded in relative clauses.
    Hi, sorry. I really misquote the sentences you offered. I thought ''The mouse, I think, is yummy.''=''The mouse that I think is yummy.''(That is what I learned from other forum), but it seems to be wrong. Sorry again.:eek:
     
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