There is an apple.

Morrow

Senior Member
Japanese
First, I'm sorry I've disappointed you, but I do not know anything about the Korean language. It would help us even better if you're trained in linguistics of any kind.

Let me first begin with (1).

In English, (1) sounds strange.
(1) There is an apple.
But it is acceptable if the place where the apple exists is already known to you. In other words, it is OK so long as the location is implied in some way or other.

In Japanese, which is my native language, you can use either (2a) or (2b), because the location is specified by the locative expression "ここに."
(2) a. ここにリンゴが一つあります。
b. ここに一つ(の)リンゴがあります。
But when there is no implied or understood location between speaker and listener, you can use (3a) but not (3b).
(3) a. リンゴが一つあります。
b. 一つ(の)リンゴがあります。
   
If I'm forced to express the idea of (3a) (in its relevant sense) in English, I'd say it is "Imagine there is an apple in your mind."

I thank you for having been patient with us.
Now let me ask:
Do you also have something similar to (3a) that says something exists , without any implied reference to the place it exits (or as I've said, if it exists, it only exists in your mind)?

Thank you in advance
Morrow
 
  • nort9111

    New Member
    english
    But when there is no implied or understood location between speaker and listener, you can use (3a) but not (3b).
    (3) a. リンゴが一つあります。
    b. 一つ(の)リンゴがあります。
       
    If I'm forced to express the idea of (3a) (in its relevant sense) in English, I'd say it is "Imagine there is an apple in your mind."

    I thank you for having been patient with us.
    Now let me ask:
    Do you also have something similar to (3a) that says something exists , without any implied reference to the place it exits (or as I've said, if it exists, it only exists in your mind)?

    Thank you in advance
    Morrow
    In Korean
    (3a) 사과가 한 개 있습니다.
    (3b) 한 개의 사과가 있습니다.
    3a and 3b are both right so there is no reason you can't use 3b in Korean, but 3a is more common.

    I think both 3a and 3b can be used to say "without any implied reference to the place it exits" and "if it exists, it only exists in your mind".
     

    Morrow

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Dear nort9111,
    I appreciate your help and comments.

    I'm surprised that the Korean language also has a pattern of Q-float (quantifier float)

    I've got my answer, but it would help us if you could answer this follow-up:

    What would be your answer if you are asked to give something in English that is closest in idea to 사과가 한 개 있습니다?

    Morrow
     
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    nort9111

    New Member
    english
    What would be your answer if you are asked to give something in English that is closest in idea to 사과가 한 개 있습니다?

    사과가 한 개 있습니다.

    There is an apple. is the most direct translation I can give. =) It's quite interesting how English is so different from Korean and Japanese.



    However I would like to add some few things:
    (1) In a situation A is hypnotizing B. A can say "사과가 한 개 있습니다." to B to mean "Imagine there is an apple in your mind."
    (2) Sometimes Koreans say "있습니다" as a short form of "가지고 있습니다" in common speach.
    "가지고 있습니다." means "I have"
    "저는 사과를 한 개 가지고 있습니다." is "I have an apple."
    A can say "사과가 한 개 있습니다." to B, under the condition B understands that A is talking about the apple A owns.




    I also have a question for you. In your first post you said :

    But when there is no implied or understood location between speaker and listener, you can use (3a) but not (3b).
    (3) a. リンゴが一つあります。
    b. 一つ(の)リンゴがあります。


    Does 3b have a different meaning from 3a? Or is the sentence just wrong?
    Can you explain why you can't use 3b in Japanese?

    Because in Korean 3a and 3b practically have the same meaning, with only a very small difference on what you are emphasizing. So I have a feeling many Japanese learning Koreans will make the mistake of 3b.
     
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    Morrow

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    I don't know how close or how different the Japanese language and the Korean language may be, but I think at least it is necessary to pay more attention to the mutual influences of one on the other. Thank you for your information, nort9111.

    First, as I think you know, you can use either an NP made up of "numeral+classifier+(genitive)+N" or a Q-float form of "N+case-marker+numeral+classifier" in most cases without any significant differences in meaning, as shown in (4).
    (4) a. 我が家にも二人(の)子供がいます。
    我が家にも[in my home too]+二人[numeral "two"+classifier]+(の[genitive])+子供[children]+が[case-marker]+います[exist].
    Two children exist in my home too→I have two children too.
    b. 我が家にも子供が二人います。
         我が家にも+子供+が+二人+います。
         Children exist two in my home too→I have two children too.
    (Numeral "two" is believed to have floated from the subject NP position)

    Sometimes, however, the difference in function between the two can become salient.
    In my understanding, you need to specify the location when you put a genitive "の" in between classifier and noun, as in (5).

    (5) a. ?(ここに)一つリンゴがあります。
    b. (ここに)一つリンゴがあります。

    And I think you can use both (6a) and (6b) without any significant differences when you want to say something that corresponds to (7a), (7b) or (7c).
    (6) a. リンゴが一つあります。
    b. 一つリンゴがあります。
    (7) a. I can see an apple ((lying) in there).
    b. I have an apple (in my bag).
    c. There is an apple (in the refrigerator).
    Note that seemingly both (6a) and (6b) are lacking in a locative phrase, but pragmatically, the location where the apple exists is implied; otherwise you can't use either of them.

    The only difference I can think of between (6a) and (6b) is that you can use the former but not the latter if there's no implication about the physical space that the apple in question is supposed to occupy. In other words, "Xが一つあります" means "Only one of something exists" and nothing more. (I think I can imagine how strange this may sound to English-speaking people. For them, there must be a stage first on which you can introduce someone or something later on.)

    The reason I've been trying (so far in vain) to find the closest approximation possible of (6a) is that in my view, this idea of "ある" has something to do with "I have" and "there is" as in (8).

    (8) a. I have something to say.
    b. I have something I have to say.
    c. There is something I have to say.

    Now I think this may serve the purpose:
    Picture this: one apple exists.
    Or do you think "Imagine there is an apple in your mind" is more convincing or promising?

    What do you think?
    Morrow

    This may be interesting.
    (9) 8月なのに、肌寒い。
    (10) a. *In spite of August, it is a bit chilly.
    b. In spite of the fact that it was August, it is a bit chilly.
    Japanese-speaking people use an NP(8月[=August]) where English-speaking people use a sentence (it was August) to embody a similar idea, (though you also have "It is a bit chilly for August).
     
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