they are embedded in the events in Beethoven's life, and <that> both from a creative viewpoint but also

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episteme0507

Member
Korean
To refer to the time frame for the creation of this sonata as a Beethovenian microcosm would be misleading. While our creation histories concentrate on specific information with respect to one Beethoven work, they are still embedded in the overall events in Beethoven's life, and that both from a creative viewpoint but also from a general, biographical viewpoint, so that they are never entirely removed from this framework and, on the basis of this, neither can nor want to present a microcosm.

In the first place, I am curious about the role of underlined 'that' as above. Second of all, does this text sound fine to native speakers? What I meant to ask is whether it looks fine in general or not.

Thanks in advance !!!
 
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  • episteme0507

    Member
    Korean
    I just ran into this information. To the best of my memories, this information is about Beethoven Piano Sonata no.23
     

    Cagey

    post mod (English Only / Latin)
    English - US
    ... they are still embedded in the overall events in Beethoven's life, and that both from a creative viewpoint ....
    "That" refers back to the fact that the creation histories are embedded in the overall events of Beethoven's life.
    .
    ... they are still embedded in the overall events in Beethoven's life, and they are embedded in the overall events of Beethoven's life both from a creative viewpoint but also from a general, biographical viewpoint,
    .
    One thing that strikes me as odd is the construction:
    both from a creative viewpoint but also from
    .
    I would expect either:
    both from a creative viewpoint and from a general, biographical viewpoint,
    or​
    not only from a creative viewpoint but also from a general, biographical viewpoint,
     

    episteme0507

    Member
    Korean
    Thanks! To be honest, I dare to say that while reading this text, I felt somewhat awkward because of some points. To get it off my chest, I didn't really feel like somebody whose first language is English wrote this. What do you think about? I know I am not that qualified to judge somebody's English in this manner, though. But that's how I felt.
     

    Cagey

    post mod (English Only / Latin)
    English - US
    I don't see any indications that this was written by a non-native speaker of English. The author prefers to use somewhat elaborate and old-fashioned constructions, but some people do. The use of 'that', for instance, reminds me of authors of a 100 or more years ago.

    I don't think you should worry about reading this unless you have a particular interest in the subject. It is not a model of the kind of English you are likely to encounter these days, or that you will be expected to speak or write.
     

    suzi br

    Senior Member
    English / England
    It looks like garbage to me, but what do I know? :D
    I'd classify it as Peusdo-Academic Verbiage.
    It could be a pompous native speaker. I wouldn't assume it was a non-native speaker, but it could be a translation where a key concept has got lost.
     

    episteme0507

    Member
    Korean
    I am really thankful for you about your considerate answers !! While delving into Beethoven Piano Sonata no.23, I just ran into that information. I don't have a keen sense of distinguishing between the texts the same way you did in respect to old fashioned constructions and the like. Thanks a lot again! It utterly helped me a lot.
     

    velisarius

    Senior Member
    British English (Sussex)
    The confusion of singular and plural in the sentence below, and the weird use of "meanwhile centuries", lead me to the conclusion that the writer is probably not a native speaker of English.

    "That which--as is also the case with other Beethoven works--fills the gap between our creation history and our discussion of the musical content of the work in question, are the decades and meanwhile centuries through which this works continued to live, both through its being interpreted by great artists and through its being received by the public."
     
    I agree with Velisarius that the speaker has odd habits and turns of phrase [see, 'want to, below], though s/he's very familiar with academic English; her/his structures are complex; reminiscent perhaps, of German.

    Here is my reading of the crucial part of the OP. Added words for clarity are in [xx] brackets.

    To refer to the time frame for the creation of this sonata as a Beethovenian microcosm would be misleading. While our creation histories concentrate on specific information with respect to one Beethoven work, they[histories] are still embedded in the overall events in Beethoven's life; and that [is true, or holds] both from a creative viewpoint {but}[and] also from a general, biographical viewpoint.

    {so that}[Thus] they[histories] are never entirely removed from this framework and, on the basis of this, [they] neither can nor {want to}[are able to] present a microcosm.
     
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