Three beautiful cities.

[Encolpius]

Hello, I am beginner at Japanese, I uploaded a photo in a website and called "three beautiful cities" and translated it into Japanese as "三つの美しい都市よ". My comment was commented as false by a non-native. I am lost. I did not want to argue on that website. Was my sentence really false? Thanks. Enco.

 

[gengo]

I uploaded a photo in a website and called it "three beautiful cities" and translated it into Japanese as "三つの美しい都市よ". My comment was commented as false by a non-native. I am lost. I did not want to argue on that website. Was my sentence really false?

I'm not sure what you mean by "false," but there is nothing wrong with "三つの美しい都市." (There is no need for the よ at the end, though, and it sounds unnatural there.) This version is something you would hear in speech.

You could also label the photo as 美しき三都市. This version has a higher register, and is more suited to writing.

 

[KLAUSED]

Unlike many of the European languages, Japanese doesn't distinguish between singular and plural, and we tend to leave out numerals unless they're absolutely necessary. "三つの美しい都市” used alone as a photo caption (?) sounds somewhat unnatural to me probably because I feel it works perfectly fine without a numeral.

I would use 美しい街の数々 if I wanted to let the viewers know I was talking about more than one city.

 

[Encolpius]

Thank you, I am a beginner so it is a luxury to read your comments. The recommended title by the non-native was: どっちも美しい都市ですよ. I was not sure I can use よ without a verb, but I think I read somewhere you do not need a verb before よ. By the way, what does 数々 mean? Thank you very much.

 

[Flaminius]

I think the awkwardness comes from mismatch of 都市 with the counter つ. Smaller objects are more amenable with this counter, e.g., 三つの美しいペンダント.

The problem is that Japanese doesn't seem to have a counter more suitable for 都市. We, therefore, need be content with 三つの美しい都市.

 

[KLAUSED]

Come to think about it, maybe it has to do with the use of the counter つ, which is one of the most basic counters, the other being 個. Being basic, つ doesn't sit well with me when used to label a photo/painting. I have no issues with captions/titles like "三輪の美しい花”, "三人の美しい女性” or ”三本の美しいペンダント” which lends a more refined/artistic feel to the art piece it describes.

 

[gengo]

"三つの美しい都市” used alone as a photo caption (?) sounds somewhat unnatural to me probably because I feel it works perfectly fine without a numeral.

I would use 美しい街の数々 if I wanted to let the viewers know I was talking about more than one city.

I am assuming that the OP posted a photo that showed exactly three cities. If that is the case, I have to disagree with your suggestion of の数々. That is, it is important here to specify the number three.

Come to think about it, maybe it has to do with the use of the counter つ, which is one of the most basic counters, the other being 個.

Unless I am badly mistaken, つ is not a counter. It is simply part of the word みつ（三つ）, and as such forms one of the first ten numbers in native Japanese (as opposed to the numbers that come from Chinese): ひとつ、ふたつ、みつ、よつ、... とう.

 

[Flaminius]

I was not sure I can use よ without a verb

Just the opposite! You must use a verb before -yo. This "verb" includes copular elements such as です, だ, and である.

Verbless よ is appellative; Oh, ye three beautiful cities.

Xの数々: a great number of X

つ is not a counter

It IS a counter. Words like ひとつ and ふたつ are quantifiers, which are defined as consisting of a numeral and a counter (classifier in the academic argot). If I want to modify* 酒 with a quantifier, I'd say ふた壺の酒, not ふたつ壺の酒.

For number 9, つ has coagulated with the numeral to the extent that Sino-Japanese きゅう壺の酒 is used, avoiding the conflict between ここのつ壺 and ここの壺.


*Well, quantifiers may not modify a noun but stand as complement to the noun.

 

[gengo]

It IS a counter.

All the counters I know of refer to actual things, and have a corresponding kanji. If つ is a counter, what does it refer to?

Even the ambiguous こ (個) has a meaning.

In other words, if you are correct, then 三つ literally means three tsu's.* What are those?

* Analogous to 三杯 = three cups, 三機 = three airplanes, etc., 三羽 = three birds (or rabbits), and so on.

 

[Flaminius]

> three tsu's

Just like you cannot accept three 羽's, you don't need to accept three tsu's. In other words, as you cannot say:

山からキジ、ハト、スズメの羽が飛んできた。 [listing the elements in a set of 羽's]​

so you need not conceive of actual things for つ (a tongue-in-cheek answer is つ is a non-trivial remainder of mod 10).

I think you are having issues with the fact that the autochthonous Japanese numerals are bound morphemes. E.g.,
We say きゅう　ひく　さん　は　ろく (9 - 3 = 6), using Sino-Japanese vocabulary, but we cannot say:
*よ　に　いつ　を　かけた　かず　は　はた　に　ひとしい (4 * 5 = 20), using tsu-less autochthonous numerals.

The oldest example I know of calculative expression is that of multiplication recorded in 1604 by Rodrigues, a Jesuit missionary to Japan. The expression is Yotçuni caquru (四つにかくる), and means "to quadruple". Apparently, the Japanese language has evolved since then to express calculations of pure numbers with Sino-Japanese terms, not to refine autochthonous numerals so they can express pure numbers.

 

[KLAUSED]

I am assuming that the OP posted a photo that showed exactly three cities. If that is the case, I have to disagree with your suggestion of の数々. That is, it is important here to specify the number three.

As I said, Japanese, unlike English, is more "relaxed" when it comes to numbers and I feel much less need to be so specific about them when I'm talking/writing in Japanese. Also, 三つの美しい都市 sounds a little awkward because it's a combination of the somewhat childish sounding つ and 都市, a word that only people over a certain age use.

Unless I am badly mistaken, つ is not a counter. It is simply part of the word みつ（三つ）, and as such forms one of the first ten numbers in native Japanese (as opposed to the numbers that come from Chinese): ひとつ、ふたつ、みつ、よつ、... とう.

It is one of the many 助数詞 (counters) listed in 大辞林. The non-Sinoxenic way of counting in Japanese is ひ(1)　ふ(2)　み(3)　よ(4). It's going out of use and I'm not sure how it goes after that (い　む　な　や　こ　と？) but it's pretty obvious the more often used ひとつ　ふたつ　みっつ よっつ is formed by adding つ to it.

 

[Joschl]

The problem is that Japanese doesn't seem to have a counter more suitable for 都市.

I agree with Flaminius.

If つ is a counter, what does it refer to? [...] What are those?

This is a suffix functioning as a counter that is far less specific then the other counters, which is characteristic of that suffix -tsu.

This general semantic and combinatory feature of "-tsu" might also enable us (both children and adults) to use it - more or less by default - when we don't find any other counters that would be suitable for a particular item such as 都市 even though the suffix -tsu can only be attached to the numerals 1-9 ( 十つの都市). I don't think that this description of "-tsu" and its tendency to be more amenable to "smaller objects" will contradict each other.

 

[gengo]

Just like you cannot accept three 羽's, you don't need to accept three tsu's. In other words, as you cannot say:

山からキジ、ハト、スズメの羽が飛んできた。[listing the elements in a set of 羽's] so you need not conceive of actual things for つ​

You seem to be missing my point. I wasn't saying that counters can be used by themselves as in your above example. I was saying that they have meaning. 羽 is a feather or wing. Therefore, キジ三羽 is literally "three wings of pheasant." If つ is a counter, I am asking what it means.

(a tongue-in-cheek answer is つ is a non-trivial remainder of mod 10).

What does "mod 10" mean?

It is one of the many 助数詞 (counters) listed in 大辞林. The non-Sinoxenic way of counting in Japanese is ひ(1)　ふ(2)　み(3)　よ(4).

I want to stress that I'm not arguing with you native speakers. If you all say つ is a counter, then I have to accept that. And words such as 三鷹（みたか）(where I used to live) demonstrate what Klaused says above. I am just asking what つ means.

 

[Flaminius]

What does "mod 10" mean?

It's short for modulus operation by divisor 10: What is the remainder if you divide 3 by 10? (answer: 3). Each of the numbers from 1 to 9 yields that much remainder, with 10 mod 10 being 0, the trivial answer. I referred to this exception because multiples of 10 do not get suffixed with -tsu (とお, はた, みそ, etc.).

The meaning of つ:
There is no meaning. It's a functional word. A grammarian argues* that one of the functions of numeral classifiers besides classifying is to make Japanese nouns denumerable, which are otherwise uncountable (138). The function of Counter つ is to provide a discrete and countable reading to a noun of an autochthonous origin (as opposed to 個). Casuistry into its meaning is as futile as that into the plural marker -s in English.



*吉田光演「日本語の助数詞と数範疇の考察」『広島大学総合科学部紀要: V 言語文化研究』第31巻 (2005年)、127-58。http://doi.org/10.15027/14298