"To achieve to"?

Frigolin

Senior Member
Argentina - Español
Hi there, everyone! I was wondering whether this construction is correct or not:

To achieve to practically handle a methodology derived from structuralist proposals which, even if superseded, continue to be effective in certain cases, and are the centre of the organization and coherence of the present work.

What do you think?
 
  • suzi br

    Senior Member
    English / England
    Frigolin said:
    Hi there, everyone! I was wondering whether this construction is correct or not:

    To achieve to practically handle a methodology derived from structuralist proposals which, even if superseded, continue to be effective in certain cases, and are the centre of the organization and coherence of the present work.

    What do you think?

    I think not! I've never heard anyone say "to achieve to" .

    Apart from that I don't really know what you are trying to say with the rest of it. It seems to me you could do with breaking it into two sentences, assuming this is what you mean:

    " The goal of the organisation and its current work is the achievement of a methodology based on structuralist proposals. Structuralist principles are favoured since they can continue to be effective in some cases, even if superseded in others."
     

    ChiMike

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    Hi Frigolin!

    It's a good academic sentence after the very beginning. You were right to ask.

    To achieve to practically handle a methodology derived from structuralist proposals which, even if superseded, continue to be effective in certain cases, and are the centre of the organization and coherence of the present work.

    I know what you mean, but would try to write it as follows:

    "To manage to arrive at a practicable [i.e., that can be applied easily] methodology derived from..."
    "To handle (or: manipulate) with practical success a methodology..."

    I suppose you are translating this passage, and have to maintain something like the original sentence structure. Otherwise, if it's your own, I would make at least two sentences out of it.
     

    maxiogee

    Banned
    English
    I'm with suzi br there. "To achieve to" is ungainly and I would imagine it is also incorrect usage, but I wouldn't like to be held to that. I did a google-fight between "to achieve" and "to achieve to" and was horrified to see that they came in at 581 million to 579 million respectively. A whole lot of people think its right.

    Suzi's two sentences are wonderful.
     

    maxiogee

    Banned
    English
    ChiMike said:
    I know what you mean, but would try to write it as follows:

    "To manage to arrive at a practicable [i.e., that can be applied easily] methodology derived from..."
    "To handle (or: manipulate) with practical success a methodology..."

    Not "To manage to arrive…" - that "to manage" is redundant. "To arrive… " is sufficient.
     

    Frigolin

    Senior Member
    Argentina - Español
    Thanks, Suzi! I see now. I´m translating a text that doesn´t make much sense in Spanish either into English. I didn´t get any suggestions at the Spanish-English forum probably because of that, so I decided to clarify my doubts here.

    The text goes like this:
    An introduction to the experiment at hand > Followed by a listing of its aims.
    One of these aims was: (I´m trying again) -To be able to manipulate a methodology derived from structuralist proposals which, despite being superseded, continue to be effective in certain cases, and (these proposals) are the centre (/grounds) of the organisation and coherence of this experiment.
     

    ChiMike

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    suzi br said:
    It seems to me that you already HAVE!

    On the contrary, I happen to agree with you both about "to achieve to", but I wrote before I saw your contributions, but I didn't find it necessary to be proscriptive. And, apparently, neither of you thought Frigolin might be under some constraints imposed by the fact that he might not have written the original sentence himself.

    Ta!
     

    ChiMike

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    Frigolin said:
    Thanks, Suzi! I see now. I´m translating a text that doesn´t make much sense in Spanish either into English. I didn´t get any suggestions at the Spanish-English forum probably because of that, so I decided to clarify my doubts here.

    The text goes like this:
    An introduction to the experiment at hand > Followed by a listing of its aims.
    One of these aims was: (I´m trying again) -To be able to manipulate a methodology derived from structuralist proposals which, despite being superseded, continue to be effective in certain cases, and (these proposals) are the centre (/grounds) of the organisation and coherence of this experiment.

    As I thought, your author is not so sure as your interlocutors that he has actually managed to manipulate the concepts. Your translation of that:

    To be able to is better than my suggestion, but it's good of you to maintain some of the original author's humility.

    for the end I would try:

    and which are the focus of the organisation and...
     

    Frigolin

    Senior Member
    Argentina - Español
    You are incredibly helpful! I see now that "to achieve to" is incorrect usage. And most of the results for "to achieve to" yielded by Google have a similar structure to that in this example "the things you have to achieve to become a master". In which case, I think is correct. But not in mine. :(

    Anyway, the three of you are fantastic, and I´m glad to hear that you, Mike, understood what I wrote. I can´t be thaaaaaaaat bad after all (I´m lousy still).
     

    ChiMike

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    Frigolin said:
    You are incredibly helpful! I see now that "to achieve to" is incorrect usage. And most of the results for "to achieve to" yielded by Google have a similar structure to that in this example "the things you have to achieve to become a master". In which case, I think is correct. But not in mine. :(

    Anyway, the three of you are fantastic, and I´m glad to hear that you, Mike, understood what I wrote. I can´t be thaaaaaaaat bad after all (I´m lousy still).

    It's because the second "to" substitutes for "in order to". That can be done with a lot (I'm not sure whether all) of English verbs but makes it difficult at times to distinguish a required verbal phrase: to have to, to arrive at, etc.

    Y no pienso de tratar yo mismo una traducciòn tan dificil en inglès. Bravo!
     

    maxiogee

    Banned
    English
    ChiMike said:
    Gee! I hope I manage to get to your level of cocksureness someday!

    I only objected to "to manage to arrive" —> To arrive means to manage to arrive. You cannot arrive if you cannot 'manage to arrive'.

    I would not have objected to "to attempt to arrive" or some other construction implying effort.

    Do you say to a visitor to your home "You managed to arrive."?
     

    ChiMike

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    maxiogee said:
    I only objected to "to manage to arrive" —> To arrive means to manage to arrive. You cannot arrive if you cannot 'manage to arrive'.

    I would not have objected to "to attempt to arrive" or some other construction implying effort.

    Do you say to a visitor to your home "You managed to arrive."?

    All the time: I'm glad you managed to arrive in spite of the blizzard.

    And what do you say? "contrived to arrive"

    But the way, the 10th definition in my OED is:

    10: a. To bring to pass by contrivance; hense, to succed in accomplishing. Also, with inf. as obj.: often ironically, to be so unskillful or unlucky as to do something. 1722
    b. absol. To contrive to get along or pull through (under disadvantages) colloq. 1899

    I guess over here, we manage to use the construction without irony more often than some.

    If you take it easy and don't try to lay down the law when it's not necessary, you avoid having to look things up quite so often. On the other hand, if you want proscribe instead of prescribing, you have to have some authority other than ipse dixit.
     

    maxiogee

    Banned
    English
    ChiMike said:
    All the time: I'm glad you managed to arrive in spite of the blizzard.

    And what do you say? "contrived to arrive"
    I just say "You've arrived. Welcome" - other stuff is patently obvious. They have arrived. Even the "you've arrived" is strictly unnecessary, but I don't want to appear curt, do I? :D

    I wait until they're in the door before I start with the irony, sarcasm and discussion of the weather. ;)
     

    ChiMike

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    maxiogee said:
    I just say "You've arrived. Welcome" - other stuff is patently obvious. They have arrived. Even the "you've arrived" is strictly unnecessary, but I don't want to appear curt, do I? :D

    I wait until they're in the door before I start with the irony, sarcasm and discussion of the weather. ;)

    I guess we've contrived to arrive at a compromise! :D

    And I suppose that blizzards are rare in Ireland!;)
     
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