to happen / to fall

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ThomasK

Senior Member
Belgium, Dutch
I thought of the word 'uitvallen' in Dutch (fall out, literally), meaning 'to turn out'. as in : 'Het viel nog goed uit' [Things turned out well after all]. --- We can then say: 'Het viel mee/ viel tegen' [Things turned out well/ not well (not as expected)], something like, lit.: 'Things fell along [parallel with the way we expected it, I think/ I interpret]/ fell against).

Of course that is not so strange: in Latin we have casus (case, geval in Dutch), coincidentia (toe-val in Dutch). My question: do you use something like vallen in such cases ?

I am not so sure but
- I think English uses to turn more often (turn out, turn awry/ wrong, ...), in some cases something like to come (outcome, e-vent).
- In French it might be rouler (se dérouler) [I have no clue whether se passer refers to a movement]
- In Dutch it might also be lopen, to run(alles liep goed af, things worked out well/ for the better (?))

I suggest we focus on very common verbs referring to movement, not to the historical verbs except if they refer to some 'basic' movement as well...
 
  • In Greek:

    In the standard language, to happen is «συμβαίνω» [sim'veno] a Classical Greek verb «συμβαίνω» (sŭm'bænō)--> lit. to be joined to someone, walk with/by him/her metaph. (since Classical times) come to pass, fall out, happen. Compound, prefix and preposition «σὺν» (sūn)--> with, together with (of unknown origin) + verb «βαίνω» (bænō, ['veno] in modern pronunciation), Mycenaean Greek *bamjo --> to walk, step, from PIE base *gwā-, to go, which produces the neuter noun «βῆμα» ('bēmă), Doric «βᾶμα» ('bāmă), Modern Greek «βήμα» ['vima] --> step, pace; similar concept with the Latin "coincidere".
    The thing which happens is either,
    1/ a «συμβάν» (sim'van)--> incident, event; in Modern Greek it's a neuter noun, in Classical Greek «συμβάν» (sūm'bān) was the neuter participle of the 2nd aorist tense of the verb «συμβαίνω» (sŭm'bænō) turned into a stranded noun with identical meaning, or,
    2/ a «γεγονός» (ʝeɣo'nos)--> incident, event; in Modern Greek it's a neuter noun, in Classical Greek «γεγονός» (gĕgŏ'nŏs) was the neuter participle of the past perfect tense of the verb «γίγνομαι» ('gĭgnŏmæ)--> to come into being, turned into a stranded noun.
    Colloquially we say that things «μου γύρισαν ανάποδα» [mu 'ʝirisan a'napoða], something like "things turned upside-down on me", or, «μου πήγαν στραβά» [mu 'piɣan stra'va], something like "things went wrong (lit. crooked) on me".

    PS: In the modern language «συμβάν» carries more of a negative meaning, i.e. an accident is simply a «γεγονός», a tragic accident is more like a «συμβάν».
    Coincidently my deepest condolences to your nation TK, for yesterday's tragic «συμβάν»
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Thanks, Apmoy, and indeed, that was the starting-point!!!

    Could you comment on the roots of the words in bold:
    Colloquially we say that things «μου γύρισαν ανάποδα» [mu 'ʝirisan a'napoða], something like "things turned upside-down [my feet, /poda/ ?] on me", or, «μου πήγαν στραβά» [mu 'piɣan stra'va], something like "things went wrong (lit. crooked) on me".
    Do you use any of those roots when referring to the economic difficulties Greece is going through ? Do you also consider it a /sunban/ ?
     
    «Γύρισαν» ['ʝirisan] is third person pl. aorist tense of the verb «γυρίζω» [ʝi'rizo] lit. "to turn around" (gyros anyone? ;)). It's plural, because things in Greek is a neuter pl. noun.
    «Ανάποδα» [a'napoða] is a Modern Greek adv. which derives from the Byzantine saying «ἀνὰ τὸν πὀδα» (a'na ton 'poða) lit. "up by the foot"; it was a common medieval practice to hang criminals (thieves, killers etc) from the feet with the head downwards «ἀνὰ τὸν πὀδα» so that people could hit/curse/spit on their faces.

    «Πήγαν» ['piɣan] is third person pl. aorist tense of the verb «πάω» (Classical «ὑπάγω»), lit. "to go away, withdraw, retire".
    «Στραβά» [stra'va] is a Modern Greek adv. which derives from the Classical adj. «στρεβλός, -λὴ, -λόν» (strĕ'blŏs m./strĕ'blē f./strĕ'blŏn n.)--> twisted, crooked.

    ThomasK said:
    Do you use any of those roots when referring to the economic difficulties Greece is going through ? Do you also consider it a /sunban/ ?
    Actually, no, both «γεγονός» and «συμβάν» are sudden and irrevocable incidents; they happen suddenly, are rare and instantaneous. An incident that is continuous or repeated, becomes a «κατάσταση» [ka'tastasi] (fem. noun) a chronic recurrence/chronic condition.

    ThomasK said:
    Thanks, Apmoy, and indeed, that was the starting-point!!!
    It was the first thing that came to my mind, what a tragedy!
     

    sakvaka

    Senior Member
    Finnish.

    The verb 'happen, occur, take place' is tapahtua (related to tapa, "way of doing"?) or sattua (which also means 'hurt' as in 'It hurts'). As for related words, I recognize the idea of walking/going/moving forward/being in movement:

    Kaikki kävi parhain päin. Everything turned out well. (käydä = (roughly) walk)
    Asiat kulkevat omaa rataansa. The things follow their own course. (= you cannot affect things too much, just as the Earth follows its 'path' through space with little interference; kulkea = (roughly) move, progress forward)

    Could the expressions How's it going? (Miten menee?) and The exam went well. (Koe meni hyvin.) be related, by the way? There's something similar in them, the way I see it. Happening (/result) is connected to moving. Could you use uitvallen to describe an exam?
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    That's great information. Lots of movement in events in Finnish!

    Some notes:
    - to do = to happen ? There might be something like that in French: comment ça se fait qu'il y a ... ? [How does it do/ is it done ... ?] - but I am not a native speaker]
    - käydä reminds me of our uitlopen (run > turn out to...), French (se dé-)rouler
    - move: I don't see a link in Dutch
    - go/ men-/ gaan: oh, yes, they are related indeed, or so I think. We have quite the same expressions, and I can recognize them in other IE languages as well
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Hungarian:

    megesik - it happens
    meg - perfective prefix
    esik - he/she/it falls

    előfordul - it happens, occurs
    elő - prefix (cca. "fore", "ahead")
    fordul- he/she/it turns

    (the traslations are approximative)

    P.S. The verb menni (to go) can be used in a similar way like in Finnish (post #6), but it expresses rather the way how things happen and not the fact that they happen.
     
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    rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    Arabic also has such a verb. وقع waqa3a, which means either "to fall" or "to happen"
    If you say وقع الشيء, it can mean "something fell" (as in literally fell down) or "something happened".
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Great. One more general question: could you imagine using 'turn', or 'come', or other action verbs in order to express, e.g., turning out, ending in, etc. ?
    In Tagalog, 1.)to happen=Mangyari and 2.) it happen to fall= nangyari na malaglag/bumagsak.
    I got some extra information from a lady I met:
    YARI can only mean "happen"when the prefix "pang" is added, as in PANGYAYARI (with the extra "ya" turning the extra verb into a noun:

    yari: caused by or made by
    pangyayari : event (mga pangyayari : events)
    nangyari: has happened
    "
    That seems to imply that events in Tagalog do not 'fall', but they might 'be generated' (as in French: ça se produit ???), so it seems...
     
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    arielipi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    Its not unfamiliar in hebrew for come out[=outcome]:
    כך יצא cach yatza - so it has turned out[= it happened to be so; the outcome turned to be thus].
    יצא is used for 'going out/to (of something/place)'
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Well, can you say : let's cach [go out] this evening? Or have I understood the meaning wrongly? I am thinking of the literal, non-figurative/ non-metaphorical meanings of cach (if that is the verb)...
     

    arielipi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    no, cach is 'so/thus'; yatza is the verb 'turned out/exited'.
    cach can also be 'such'.

    בוא נצא הערב bow'u netze ha'erev( lets go out this evening) uses yatza in future form.
    תשים את הדברים כך שיהיה מסודר tasim et hadvarim cach sheyihiye mesudar - put things such that[=in a way that] (everything) will be organized.
    כך עושים זאת cach osim zot thats how you do it.

    כך is a tricky word because its one of the only few words that exist in hebrew and not in english.
     

    arielipi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    If this attempt wont provide full explanation then you can pm me,
    cach can be thought of as 'in (a/the) way things are...(verbing).
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Three years later I thought of the idea of (r)evolution, which we translate as ontwikkeling (evol..., de-velopment - so no genuine translation of 'evolution', more like a paraphrase) or omwenteling (round-turning, lit.) . Lat. volvere means 'to turn'...

    The typical word for happening, gebeuren, contains the root 'beur-', which we also have in '(om) beurt', i.e. '(taking) turns','mijn beurt', i.e., 'my turn'.
     

    123xyz

    Senior Member
    Macedonian
    Macedonian:

    се случува/случи - standard verb for "to happen", with the root "луч-", the meaning of which I'm not familiar with. It's also featured in "одлучува/одлучи", meaning "to decide". In Russian, you also have "получать/получить" (to obtain) and "разлучать/разлучить" (to separate) with the same root. Either way, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with falling.
    бидне - а colloquial verb for "to happen", only perfective (though it could have an imperfective form derived from it, namely "биднува", which is rarely used), derived from "биде", the future (also in da-constructions) stem of "сум", namely "to be".
    се дешава/деси - a colloquial verb for "to happen", taken from Serbian; it can't pass in literature, unlike the former; the root's meaning has apparently got something to do with fate, but certainly not with "to fall"

    A verb related to "to happen" with the root meaning "to fall" (пад-):
    спопаѓа/спопадне - to befall, which is evidently equivalent to "to happen to", except that it's transitive rather than intransitive with the dative
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    As for happening and deciding: the caedere in decision reminds me of falling, or of felling (making fall). If you have the same root in the verbs for obtaining and separating, there ought to be some link, but of course there might well have been semantic shifts of all kinds. obtaining and separating might share some feature, viz., their "finality" (it cannot be changed, it is final - in principle).

    (In the meantime I've found a list with the Cyrillic signs, but no word list with some useful words/concepts...)
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I didn't think we had this in Portuguese, but I've just remembered the verb calhar, to happen (by chance), or to fit, related to the noun calha, a drainpipe or conduit.
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    I forgot an important one: evolution. Volvere is turning...
    Yes, evolutio (Lat.) derives from the verb volvere. Thus e.g. the Spanish volver, revolver, devolver ..., Italian volgere, rivolgersi, ..., but also the English revolver (kind of gun), evolution, revolution, devolution, involve, etc ..., all these words come from the same Latin root, expressing the idea of "turn, turning". (BTW the verb to turn is also from Latin ...).
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Thanks. I also remembered the Dutch gebeuren, which should mean and have meant "happen to". However, "beurt(rol)" is "tour de (rôle)" in French, so I think there is some idea of turning involved, which I mentioned in passing with reference to English in #32.

    That is also suggested by the Wheel (turning) of Fortune, I think: is it a coincidence that the wheel is chosen? [It is late and I might be jumping to (some unjustified) conclusions. Please correct me if I am wrong...]
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    Spanish: acaecer (a- + cae "fall" + -ecer [inchoative suffix]) is a formal word for "to happen". Others are pasar (colloquial), suceder and ocurrir (a bit formal). "To turn out" could be salir "to go out": todo va a salir bien ("everything's gonna be fine"). Or maybe quedar "to remain" (quedo is a cognate of quiet), if you're supposed to "fit" somewhere: he quedado fatal en la foto ("I'm horrible in the photo"), quedar preñada ("to get pregnant").
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    So time and again we find the concept of falling, which is logical: we have no control over what is happening... I am surprised though how often it turns up.

    I wonder if there were a parallel with Chinese, Japanese, Korean...
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    As for volv-, there is develop too (un-wrap): and French développer, Catalan desenvolupar, Italian sviluppare, as well as Portuguese and Spanish which use a Romance equivalent (desenvolver and desarrollar respectively).

    What about "to fall" as in "to occur on a certain day", e.g. Last year Christmas fell on Thursday. This usage appears in Catalan and Spanish as well.
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    In Sardinian language the verbs for To Happen or To Fall don't mix like that, but there is a third verb, which is a synonymous of both verbs that can be used to replace them like in the situation mentioned above.

    To happen = Sutzèdere
    To fall = Rùere (Latin "rŭĕre" = to collapse)


    synonymous verb :

    Falare = to descend (Latin "devallare, devalare" = to descend)

    This verb can be used as synonymous of To Happen and To Fall

    Example :

    Che so faladu ind'unu fossu = I've fallen into a trench
    Ite raju qui lis est faladu = (Literally) What a lightning that has fallen upon them. (Meaning) What a disgrace that has happened to them.
     
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    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    As for volv-, there is develop too (un-wrap): and French développer, Catalan desenvolupar, Italian sviluppare, as well as Portuguese and Spanish which use a Romance equivalent (desenvolver and desarrollar respectively).

    What about "to fall" as in "to occur on a certain day", e.g. Last year Christmas fell on Thursday. This usage appears in Catalan and Spanish as well.
    I had a look at Etymonline.org, and there is no reference to the same root as volvere. The root of velop- seems to be unclear. Do you have other information? Welcome!

    In Sardinian language the verbs for To Happen or To Fall don't mix like that, but there is a third verb, which is a synonymous of both verbs that can be used to replace them like in the situation mentioned above.

    To happen = Sutzèdere
    To fall = Rùere (Latin "rŭĕre" = to collapse)


    synonymous verb :

    Falare = to descend (Latin "devallare, devalare" = to descend)

    This verb can be uses as synonymous of To Happen and To Fall

    Example :

    Che so faladu ind'unu fossu = I've fallen into a trench
    Ite raju qui lis est faladu = (Literally) What a lightning that has fallen upon them. (Meaning) What a disgrace that has happened to them.
    You are referring to three verbs here, aren't you: sutzèdere, rùere, falare. But is ruere also a verb meaning 'to happen'?

    Would you not think in the last case (raju/ faladu) we have a verb meaning falling literally, but used metaphorically here? You use 'happen'in your translation indeed, but I am inclined to think that it is not the official meaning mentioned in a dictionary. Or am I mistaken? Thanks!
     

    Sardokan1.0

    Senior Member
    Sardu / Italianu
    I had a look at Etymonline.org, and there is no reference to the same root as volvere. The root of velop- seems to be unclear. Do you have other information? Welcome!


    You are referring to three verbs here, aren't you: sutzèdere, rùere, falare. But is ruere also a verb meaning 'to happen'?

    Would you not think in the last case (raju/ faladu) we have a verb meaning falling literally, but used metaphorically here? You use 'happen'in your translation indeed, but I am inclined to think that it is not the official meaning mentioned in a dictionary. Or am I mistaken? Thanks!

    Ruere only means "to fall"; literally; I don't think to have ever heard it as synonymous of "to happen".

    But the synonymous "Falare" is more flexible, Falare means "to descend, to go down" (go down the stairs, get out of the car etc.etc.), but it's used as synonymous of "to fall" (notice how Falare - Fall sound similar!). Indeed in the last phrase the verb can be translated as "descended, fallen, or also happened" if we stretch its meaning.
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    I had a look at Etymonline.org, and there is no reference to the same root as volvere. The root of velop- seems to be unclear. Do you have other information? Welcome!
    Velop- comes from French which in turn comes from the same Germanic root as "wrap". I don't think it's cognate with volvere, the relationship is only semantical then.
     

    kaverison

    Member
    Tamil
    In Tamil, விழு - vizhu = fall; I don't recall this being used in the same context as English or any European languages mentioned here.
    We use the fall in some context though - to get caught in a plot - அவன் வலையில் விழுந்தான் - avan valayil vizhunthaan, literally he fell in the web/net.

    I always here some similarities between us and Finnish, one being agglutinate. I see another similarity here. We use walk to mean happen.
    நட - nada = literally means walk. We often use it to mean happen (like in நடந்தது - nadanthathu = (lit. walked to mean) happened, நடக்கிறது - nadakkiRathu = walking)..

    நல்லதே நடக்கும் - nallathE nadakkum = good will (always) happen.
    கல்யாணம் நடக்கும் - kalyaNam nadakkum = Marriage will happen
    காரியம் நடந்து கொண்டிருக்கிறது - kaariyam nadanthu kondu irukkiRathu = event is happening

    etc

    We also say வாழ்க்கை ஓடுது = vaazhkkai ooduthu = life goes on (literally life running)
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Thanks again. So no falling here, as far as I can see. But how do you translate "to fall"? What words are derived from it?
    I always here some similarities between us and Finnish, one being agglutinate. I see another similarity here. We use walk to mean happen=That reminds me of run/ lopen in Dutch: it can refer to happen too!

    நல்லதே நடக்கும் - nallathE nadakkum = good will (always) happen.
    கல்யாணம் நடக்கும் - kalyaNam nadakkum = Marriage will happen/ take place
    காரியம் நடந்து கொண்டிருக்கிறது - kaariyam adanthu kondu irukkiRathu = event is happening
    We also say வாழ்க்கை ஓடுது = vaazhkkai ooduthu = life goes on (literally life running) - We would say: time is running up or something the like.
     

    kaverison

    Member
    Tamil
    We use walk to mean happen=That reminds me of run/ lopen in Dutch: it can refer to happen too!
    As this FB page would have it, it all came from Tamil :).

    Fall in Tamil is விழு - vizhu. I just realized, we use it a lot in various contexts.

    வீழ்ந்தான் - viizhnthaan to mean defeated, killed as in a war.

    எரிந்து விழு - erinthu vizhu = literally burn and fall, but it's a figurative speech for yelling at people. Here it may be in the meaning of down, talking someone down.

    விழுது (n) - the falling roots (aerial prop roots according to wiki) of banyan tree

    விழுந்தெழுந்து ஓட்டம் - vizhunthu ezhunthu oottam = literally fall, get up and run to mean run for life.

    விழுந்தடித்துக்கொண்டு ஓடு - vizunthu adithu koNdu = literally, "fall, slap and" frantic run to something you like - like people "running" to black day sale day after Thanksgiving in America.

    ஓட்டு விழுந்தது - oottu vizhunthathu = Literally, "Vote fell" or votes cast.

    பரிசு விழுந்த லாட்டரி (சீட்டு) = parisu vizhuntha laattari ciittu = Lottery (ticket) that won prize

    துண்டூ விழுந்தது - thundu vizhunthathu = Literally, towel fell (towel = piece of cloth) in budget; or running short in budget,.

    (தலையில்) இடி விழுந்தது போல - thalaiyil idi vizhunthathu poola = literally, like thunder (lightning) fell (on my head)
    to mean a disastrous or shocking situation.

    காலில் கையில் விழுந்து - kaalil kaiyil vizhunthu = literally fell at his feet and hands, to mean to beg and plead.

    காதில் விழுந்தது - kaathil vizhnthathu - literally fell in ear = something (I) heard

    (அவள்) வாயில் விழுந்து - vaayil vizhunthu = fell in her mouth (here = words) to mean, to be on the wrong side of her words or roughly she will criticize.

    விழுந்து விழுந்து சிரிங்க - vizhunthu vizhunthu cirinka = fall fall laugh = roughly rolling laugh

    விழுந்து விழுந்து படி - vizhunthu vizhuntu padi = fall fall study = to study hard

    விழுந்து விழுந்து உபசாரம் - vizhunthu vizhunthu upacaaram = fall, fall, serve = falling all over

    விரிசல் விழுந்தது - virical vizhunthathu = crack fell to mean it cracked or crack formed
    and in human context, the crack in a relationship.
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    This is extensive information. Yet, I'd prefer to focus on [-pers.] "to fall" in the meaning of things happening. I'd prefer not to refer to the [+ pers.] "to fall", which is the literal falling on the floor and all the meanings based on that.

    Below I had a look at your expressions and tried to make a distinction between the two meanings. I do not know whether I was right. Just tried. But let us focus on happening.

    As this FB page would have it, it all came from Tamil :). Fall in Tamil is விழு - vizhu. I just realized, we use it a lot in various contexts.
    -
    [-pers.] HAPPEN

    ஓட்டு விழுந்தது - oottu vizhunthathu =
    Literally, "Vote fell" or votes cast.

    பரிசு விழுந்த லாட்டரி (சீட்டு) = parisu vizhuntha laattari ciittu
    = Lottery (ticket) that won prize / the FALLEN TICKETt?

    காதில் விழுந்தது - kaathil vizhnthathu -
    literally fell in ear = something (I) heard (like conspicuous, something striking)

    (அவள்) வாயில் விழுந்து - vaayil vizhunthu
    = fell in her mouth (here = words) to mean, to be on the wrong side of her words or roughly she will criticize. PLEASE PUT in a sentence...

    (தலையில்) இடி விழுந்தது போல - thalaiyil idi vizhunthathu poola =
    literally, like thunder (lightning) fell (on my head)
    to mean a disastrous or shocking situation. Does it refer to the situation? Rather to the event, I suppose: something like a shock, no? English: STRUCK, but OK, one can also consider it as falling.


    [+ pers.] FALL

    வீழ்ந்தான் - viizhnthaan to mean defeated, killed as in a war. SNEUVELEN (separate word in Dutch)

    எரிந்து விழு - erinthu vizhu = literally burn and fall, but it's a figurative speech for yelling at people. Here it may be in the meaning of down, talking someone down. WHAT IS THE LINK WITH FALLING - burning down and thus making fall?

    விழுது
    (n) - the falling roots (aerial prop roots according to wiki) of banyan tree - they SMOTHER other trees, like parasites, making them fall?

    விழுந்தெழுந்து ஓட்டம் - vizhunthu ezhunthu oottam = literally fall, get up and run to mean run for life.

    விழுந்தடித்துக்கொண்டு ஓடு - vizunthu adithu koNdu = literally, "fall, slap and" frantic run to something you like - like people "running" to black day sale day after Thanksgiving in America.
    The above two: THREE IN ONE? Running for one's life does not imply falling, but it may happen of course... How do you link the three in both cases?

    துண்டூ விழுந்தது - thundu vizhunthathu = Literally, towel fell (towel = piece of cloth) in budget; or running short in budget,. BECAUSE YOU LOST YOUR PURSE, not literally but figuratively?

    காலில் கையில் விழுந்து - kaalil kaiyil vizhunthu = literally fell at his feet and hands, to mean to beg and plead.


    விழுந்து விழுந்து சிரிங்க - vizhunthu vizhunthu cirinka = fall fall laugh = roughly rolling laugh, falling with laughter?

    விழுந்து விழுந்து படி - vizhunthu vizhuntu padi = fall fall study = to study hard , CRAMMING, falling due to exhaustion?

    விழுந்து விழுந்து உபசாரம் - vizhunthu vizhunthu upacaaram = fall, fall, serve = falling all over (LIKE BOWING?)

    விரிசல் விழுந்தது - virical vizhunthathu = crack fell to mean it cracked or crack formed
    and in human context, the crack in a relationship. -- something like HAPPEN SUDDENLY?
     
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