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to seem to be irreconcilable

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Anglo-Greek, May 31, 2014.

  1. Anglo-Greek Senior Member

    Tartu, Estonia
    English
    I want to say the following:
    "Sometimes the two different aspects of German national identity seem to be irreconcilable."

    To clarify what I mean by this: the two different aspects of German national identity (the civic concept and the ethnic concept) sometimes appear to be incompatible or contradictory.

    My best attempt is:
    "Manchmal scheinen die zwei unterschiedliche Aspekte deutscher nationaler Identität, nicht in Einklang zu sein."

    I'm not sure though whether "in Einklang sein" is the best way of rendering the idea of two concepts or ideas being reconcilable.
     
  2. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    Einklang, literally, is unison. Not being in unison with somebody/something seems to be much "weaker" than being irreconcilable with somebody/something.

    Manchmal scheinen die zwei unterschiedlichen Aspekte deutscher nationaler Identität miteinander unvereinbar zu sein.

    It might be argued that miteinander is redundant but I don't think it is. Let's wait for others to comment. To me, it means sie können nicht vereinbart werden, and unless there's miteinander, something in my head is asking: ​Womit?
     
  3. perpend

    perpend Banned

    American English
    I agree with Schimmelreiter. You need the "miteinander" to make it clear, since the verb is "sein", in my opinion.

    If you use a reflexive verb, I think the "sich" takes the place of "miteinander", also in my opinion. :confused:
    Manchmal scheinen sich die zwei unterschiedlichen Aspekte deutscher nationaler Identität nicht zu vertragen.
    Manchmal scheinen die zwei unterschiedlichen Aspekte deustcher nationaler Identität sich nicht zu vertragen.

    That's probably a stretch in German, though. I'm not sure where to place the "sich". Hopefully Schimmelreiter will have a look. :)

    That formulation may not be strong enough for "irreconcilable".
     
  4. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    is the standard word order: pronoun before noun. The idea of sich nicht vertragen seems strong enough to me. It's certainly perfectly correct, just as Manchmal scheinen die zwei unterschiedlichen Aspekte deutscher nationaler Identität unvereinbar zu sein is.

    It may - and likely will - be just me and a handful of others, but, probably out of an idiosyncrasy, there's something about both sentences that prompts me to insert miteinander. Or it might be something regional as was explained to me in an earlier thread on a related topic: Sie trafen einander (related, not at all identical). As I pointed out above, the question Womit? makes me say,

    Manchmal scheinen sich die zwei unterschiedlichen Aspekte deutscher nationaler Identität nicht miteinander zu vertragen.

    just as the very same question makes me say,

    Manchmal scheinen die zwei unterschiedlichen Aspekte deutscher nationaler Identität miteinander unvereinbar zu sein.


    I'm perfectly aware that miteinander is semantically unnecessary to both sentences since the question Womit? may legitimately be considered to be resolved implicitly. And still, there's this nagging feeling at the back of my mind that the insertion of miteinander makes the sentences "more complete". Regionalism? Idiosyncrasy? Idiosyncrazy? :confused:
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2014
  5. bearded

    bearded Senior Member

    Milano
    Italian
    Two questions for Schimmelreiter:
    1. if you use the verb vertragen, shouldn'it be ''einander'' zu vertragen (not ''miteinander'')? And in this case, ''sich'' wouldn't be necessary.. Or do you mean that ''sich miteinander vertragen'' is fully correct? I would find 'miteinander' redundant here.
    2. would the word 'unversöhnbar' be semantically correct instead of 'unvereinbar'? (after all, 'versöhnen' is 'to reconcile'), and would 'miteinander' be necessary with this verb, too?
    Thank you in advance.
     
  6. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    (1) Mother to boy: Vertrag Dich doch mit ihm!
    (2) Mother to boys: Vertragt Euch doch miteinander!
    (3) Mother to boys: Vertragt Euch doch mit den Mädchen!

    At issue is (2). I'd include miteinander although it may be considered implied.


    unversöhnbar normally goes with Gegensätze: unversöhnbare Gegensätze. That's too strong for die zwei unterschiedlichen Aspekte.
     
  7. Anglo-Greek Senior Member

    Tartu, Estonia
    English
    Thanks for the help!
     

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