trouw, vertrouwen (loyalty, trust)

ThomasK

Senior Member
Belgium, Dutch
I am just wondering how you translate both terms trouw [aan/ to a person mainly](faithfulness, loyalty)/ vertrouwen [confidence], as there is a link in Dutch, but there is no reason to suppose there is a link in other and especially non-Germanic languages.

English : loyalty/ trust (there might be link with betrothal, I was told)

German: Treue/ Vertrauen (they seem linked)
 
  • bibax

    Senior Member
    Czech (Prague)
    Czech:

    věrnost + dat. (like in German: jemandem die Treue halten);

    důvěra v + acc. (like in German: das Vertrauen in Euro)

    both words from víra, věřiti (Glaube, glauben);
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Is that 'Glaube' as belief, Bibax, or as faith? One can translate 'Vertrauen' as 'faith' - or does it refer to believing something is true? (Of course there is some link, as is suggested by 'truth' and 'trust, I think: the same:

    Related to O.E. treowian "to believe, trust," and treowe "faithful, trusty"
    I find something else there about the meaning:
    "faithfulness, quality of being true,". Meaning "accuracy, correctness" is from 1560s. Noun sense of [a truth] "something that is true" is first recorded mid-14c.
    So I guess you will be referring to 'Glaube' as faith. And BTW: I read once that printing led to a different, more objective form of truth, not - or no longer - based on the relationship with the person...
     

    sakvaka

    Senior Member
    A little Finnish for a while.

    uskollisuus - faithfulness
    Deriv. usko (faith) + -llinen ('equipped with') + -suus ('ness')

    Ihailijani ovat uskollisia minulle.
    My admirers are faithful to me.

    Oletko sinä ollut minulle uskoton?
    Have you been unfaithful to me?

    Lojaali - loyal has multiple meanings, according to J. Korpela's online dictionary

    "lojaali uskollinen, luotettava; velvollisuudentuntoinen; lainkuuliainen"
    "loyal faithful, reliable; feeling a sense of duty; loyal to the law"

    For example 
    Työntekijöiden lojaliteetti kärsii, jos he kertovat yhtiön salaisuuksia ulkopuolisille. 
    The employees' loyalty goes down if they tell company secrets to outsiders.

    luottamus - trust, confidence
    Deriv. luottaa (trust) + -mus (noun dericating suffix)

    En luota häneen enää pätkän vertaa!
    I don't trust him at all anymore!

    Turha yrittää pyytää anteeksi; petit luottamukseni kerran, ja se riittää.
    It's no use asking for an apology; you let me down ('my trust') once and that's enough.
     

    Orlin

    Banned
    български
    Some Slavic languages:
    - Bulgarian: лоялност, вярност = faithfulness, доверие = trust.
    - Russian: лояльность, верность* = faithfulness, доверие = trust.
    *(Not completely sure).
    Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian: lojalnost, v(j)ernost = faithfulness, pov(j)erenje = trust.
    All "domestic" words derive from "faith", for "faithfulness" both Slavic and loanwords are used.
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Finnish: no link with truth, I guess (is that totuus ?).

    Slavic: do I discern a similar root 'ver', as in Czech (#2)? I don't know whether you can tell me if it has to do with belief (that something is true)' or faith (in someone)...
     
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    Orlin

    Banned
    български
    Finnish: no link with truth, I guess (is that totuus ?).

    Slavic: do I discern a similar root 'ver', as in Czech (#2)? :tick:I don't know whether you can tell me if it has to do with belief (that something is true)' or faith (in someone)...
    The common Slavic root "ver" has both mentioned meanings but here the latter meaning is used.
     

    jazyk

    Senior Member
    Brazílie, portugalština
    In Portuguese:

    faithful = fiel
    faithfulness = fidelidade (related to fé, faith)
    loyal = leal
    loyalty = lealdade
    trust (noun) = confiança
    trust (ver) = confiar

    Confiar, from Latin confidere, related to fides, which gave us fé and English faith.
     

    bibax

    Senior Member
    Czech (Prague)
    Slavic věra originally meant truth, Wahrheit, veritas and is related to Latin verus and German wahr. The word věra was taken to mean 'religious (Christian) faith' (9th cent., St. Constantine & Method?) and lost the original meaning 'truth' (= now pravda from adj. pravý = right, recht, whence also právo = das Recht).
    However the adjective věrný means 1) faithful (e.g. faithful friend) 2) true, accurate, exact (like in true copy). Hence the noun věrnost meaning 1) faithfulness 2) high similarity of a copy to its original (like in vysoká věrnost zvuku = high fidelity of sound "hifi").

    All Slavic words mentioned by Orlin are from the same root věr-.
     
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    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Hungarian

    - faithful, loyal
    hűség - fidelty, loyalty
    hűséges - faithful (especially to a person, wife, husband ...)
    etc.

    bízni - to trust, to have confidence
    bizalom - trust, confidence
    bizalmas - confidential, intimate
    megbízható - trustworthy, reliable
    etc.

    There are two different stems, and biz

    An observation:
    The first group (hű) is related also to hinni (=to beleive), so one is loyal to someone when he "believes in" him
    The second group (biz) is related also to biztos (=sure), so one trusts in someone whom he thinks to be "sure of"
     
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    In Greek:

    Faith: «Πίστη» ('pisti f.); from the Classical third declension feminine noun «πίστις» ('pīstīs)-->faith, trustworthiness, credence, from archaic «πίθτις» ('pītʰtīs f.), from PIE base *bʰeidʰ-, obey, believe.
    Faithful: «Έμπιστος, -στη, -στο» (adj. 'embistos m./'embisti f./'embisto n.), compound formed with the joining together of the prefix and preposition «ἐν» (ĕn)-->in, within + feminine noun «πίστις» ('pīstīs)-->faith, trustworthiness, credence. Folkish: «Μπιστικός, μπιστική, μπιστικό» (mbisti'kos m./mbisti'ci f./mbisti'ko n.).
    Faithfulness: «Εμπιστοσύνη» (embisto'sini f.). Probably a Byzantine constructed noun.
    Loyalty: «Πίστη» ('pisti f.); from the Classical third declension feminine noun «πίστις» ('pīstīs)-->faith, trustworthiness, credence, from archaic «πίθτις» ('pītʰtīs f.), from PIE base *bʰeidʰ-, obey, believe.
    Loyal: «Πιστός, -στή, -στό» (adj. pis'tos m./pis'ti f./pis'to n.) from the same Classical adjective which described the trusty, trustworthy, loyal.
    Trust (noun): «Εμπιστοσύνη» (embisto'sini f.); Byzantine feminine noun «ἐμπιστοσύνη» (empisto'sini).
    Trust (verb): «Εμπιστεύομαι» (embi'stevome); middle voice of the Classical verb «ἐμπιστεύω» (ĕmpīs'teuō)-->to entrust, trust in, give credence to.
    Trustful: «Έμπιστος, -στη, -στο» (adj. 'embistos m./'embisti f./'embisto n.), compound formed with the joining together of the prefix and preposition «ἐν» (ĕn)-->in, within + feminine noun «πίστις» ('pīstīs)-->faith, trustworthiness, credence. Folkish: «Μπιστικός, μπιστική, μπιστικό» (mbisti'kos m./mbisti'ci f./mbisti'ko n.).
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    So I see "Πίστη" everywhere, I notice, and I see that you can establish a link with a PIE base meaning both obeying and believing. Well, obeying is new in this connection to me, but it opens an interesting perspective, for sure.

    But I'd like to invite you to tell me: do you see some basic etymological meaning? Somehow there seems to be a hint towards some kind of truth (believe), which - I make a guess - is the basis of faith, and thus of loyalty and confidence.

    I had a look at my Finnish mini-mini-dictionary and happened to find that there is a word 'luoto', cliff. Could that be the key word? I was associating that with rock and then thought confidence can be like a rock. But I am good at wild guesses. I might be quite, quite wrong. Just venturing upon a hypothesis.
     
    So I see "Πίστη" everywhere, I notice, and I see that you can establish a link with a PIE base meaning both obeying and believing. Well, obeying is new in this connection to me, but it opens an interesting perspective, for sure.

    But I'd like to invite you to tell me: do you see some basic etymological meaning? Somehow there seems to be a hint towards some kind of truth (believe), which - I make a guess - is the basis of faith, and thus of loyalty and confidence
    In the ancient language, «πίστις» stood for trust. What in other languages is translated as "faith" e.g. in the Christian scripture, in the Koine Greek, the word is «πίστις» (trust). When the Hellenistic Greeks read in the Gospels (Christ's words): «ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμέ», they understood "he that trusteth in me". Slowly though, «πίστις» altered its meaning and came to describe solely "faith". And for "trust", a new word was constructed, «ἐμπιστοσύνη», probably after the feminine noun «ἐμπίστευσις» (empisteusis)-->trusteeship (come to think of it, in order to trust a trustee, you ought to have faith in that person's abilities, honesty, loyalty etc)
     

    sakvaka

    Senior Member
    I had a look at my Finnish mini-mini-dictionary and happened to find that there is a word 'luoto', cliff. Could that be the key word? I was associating that with rock and then thought confidence can be like a rock. But I am good at wild guesses. I might be quite, quite wrong. Just venturing upon a hypothesis.
    That's a very good observation because we Finns have the expression kivenkova luottamus - a stone-hard confidence. I also have to point out that Luoto is actually a cliff/rock/small island on a lake or a sea, just like the one in this photo.

    But my etymological dictionary (Häkkinen 2004) doesn't mention any connection. Luoto is either original or a Germanic expression whereas luottaa is most likely a derivation of luoda (create) or luo- (a stem indicating proximity).
     

    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Rotsvast vertrouwen: yes, we know that kind of 'rocky' confidence too...Too bad though ;-). [But the other links are interesting too (though I cannot see a link with German or Germanic, but no side thread here!]
     

    DearPrudence

    Dépêche Mod (AL mod)
    IdF
    French (lower Normandy)
    In Portuguese:

    faithful = fiel
    faithfulness = fidelidade (related to fé, faith)
    loyal = leal
    loyalty = lealdade
    trust (noun) = confiança
    trust (ver) = confiar

    Confiar, from Latin confidere, related to fides, which gave us fé and English faith.
    Same in French again:
    faithful = fidèle
    faithfulness = la fidélité
    loyal = loyal
    loyalty = la loyauté
    trust (noun) = la confiance
    trust (ver) = faire confiance à quelqu'un
     

    mataripis

    Senior Member
    Tagalog: Truth=Katotohanan, Truthfulness= pagiging tunay, Faith= Pananampalataya(from Devanagari-Sampratyaya)/ believe=sampalataya,paniwala,pananalig, in case of faithfulness= it is translated as "Katapatan", Trust= Tiwala(as in I have trust in you= may tiwala ako sa iyo). Note: sincerity is also translated as " Katapatan" / pagiging tunay o totoo.
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    I don't whether loyalty and faithfulness are perfect synonyms, right now. I checked some sites and it does not become clear. Can anyone help here ?
    I think they are not exactly the same. For me, faithfulness is rather one's personal "attitude" (I'm faithful because I trust or believe in sy/sg ...). And loyalty is rather one's "behaviour" (I am loyal because we fight for the same idea, or perhaps because we have an agreement...). Practically, these two aspects used to coincide, so the difference may not be evident.

    What's your opinion ?...
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    I can agree with you, but indeed, in practice L symbolizes some kind of F, and F leads to L, I guess - though the link might not be necessarily intrinsic, I suddenly think.
    Yes, I agree, neverthless I tend to feel the difference, even if not in all the situations, of course. But see also the origin or etymology of the words we are talking about:

    faithful is litteraly "full of faith (or belief)"
    loyal is litteraly "legal" or "according to the law"

    The word "loyal" comes from the old French, that goes back to the Latin legalis, derived from lex, legis (= loi/loy in French and law in English)

    See also:
    Italian: leale versus legale
    Spanish: leal versus legal
     
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    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    Yes, Dutch and German: trouw/ Treue (faithfulness), and the root might be 'faithful like a tree', with faith coming first, truth coming after. But I can't get any further? starting from the PIE *dru, the most probable 'root'.
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Yes, Dutch and German: trouw/ Treue (faithfulness), and the root might be 'faithful like a tree', with faith coming first, truth coming after. But I can't get any further? starting from the PIE *dru, the most probable 'root'.
    And what about the scandinavian languages?

    I'd like to have a more "complex" idea about the germanic *tru... Now we know the German treu, the English true, the Dutch trouw and the hypothetical IE etymology, but it's still not enough ...
     
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