ugyanaz a könyv

Discussion in 'Magyar (Hungarian)' started by NagyKiss, Jul 12, 2013.

  1. NagyKiss Senior Member

    In the dictionary, against the word "ugyanaz" there's an example - "ugyanaz a könyv".

    I always thought that an article should be put first - "az ugyanaz könyv". Or does it depend on the context?

    1. Az ugyanaz könyvet megolvastam. (I read the same book.)

    2. Melyik az a könyv? Ugyanaz a könyv.
  2. Olivier0 Senior Member

    français - France
    "Ugyanaz a(z)" is the correct form, on the model of "az a(z)" = that (demonstrative).
    Notice that both parts take the same suffixes, as if they were separate and put one after the other:
    - abban a könyvben "in that book", literally "in that, in the book",
    - ugyanabban a könyvben "in the same book", literally "in the same, in the book".
    This would often be said in a shorter way: "egy könyvben", literally "in one book".
    -- Olivier
  3. NagyKiss Senior Member

    You probably misunderstood me. I did not use any demonstratives in those sentences:) I used an article "a" = "the".
    I know that ez-az take the same suffixes as the noun))
    My question was about the word order.
  4. MSZ Member

    Hungarian (NA-English dominant)
    You probably misunderstood the answer :).

    The point was that "ugyanez/ugyanaz" is used in a way similar to ('on the model of') the demonstratives "ez/az" ('this/that').

    While you did not (knowingly) use any demonstratives, it turns out that in a way, you did: although "ugyanez" is one word, it really behaves as if it were two, the demonstrative "ez" being its second part. Notice that "ugyanez/ugyanaz" come as a pair, just like "ez/az". You could think of "ugyan" as the part meaning "same as" and "ez/az" as just the demonstrative. (Hungarian also has "ugyanitt/ugyanott" meaning "the same place (as here/there)" and "ugyanígy/ugyanúgy" = "the same way/manner (as this/that way)". In not-quite-English: "the-same-as-this book" ... )

    Now, in Hungarian, the demonstratives "ez/az" are used with an article: "ez a könyv" = "this book" or "az az ember" = "that man". When you use "ugyanez/ugyanaz", the article goes in the same place: "ugyanez a könyv" or "ugyanaz az ember", meaning "the same book [as this one]" or "the same man [as that one]".

    Hope this helps.

  5. NagyKiss Senior Member

    Haha, thank you. I never thought "-az" in "ugyanaz" was a demonstrative. I thought "ugyanaz" was a whole word.

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