Ukrainian: На початку вересня

< Previous | Next >

iezik

Senior Member
Slovenian
Is "початку" а locative form of "початок", used for preposition "на" and "у"? And is the locative form for the other prepositions "початки", as used in "об початки або після". Then again, I don't see the ending -и for the locative of masculine nouns of the 2nd declension (in Pliushch, Граматика української мови, 2010) , just -і, -у, -ю, -ові, -еві :confused:

Thanks, iezik, just starting Ukrainian
 
  • jazyk

    Senior Member
    Brazílie, portugalština
    If it works like Polish, Czech, and Slovak, and I think it does, u is used in locative masculine when the noun ends in a guttural consonant, like g, k, h, and ch.

    Yes, that is correct:
    • (5) In order to avoid the palatalisation, velar root nouns take the -у ending. The other forms are all acceptable. Nouns that take the -і ending undergo the first palatalisation.
    • Ukrainian grammar - Wikipedia
    And ob there seems to be followed by accusative plural: LingQ
     

    galakha

    Member
    Ukrainian
    Is "початку" а locative form of "початок", used for preposition "на" and "у"?
    Yes. We say:
    - на початку літа/подорожі/чогось=> At the beginning of the summer/trip/smth.;
    - я вже з початку/від початку/починаючи з літа шукаю нову роботу=> I've been looking for a new job since the early summer.
    BUT
    - спочатку все здавалося нормально=> Everything seemed fine at first; Спочатку я думав..=> In the beginning, I thought..

    And is the locative form for the other prepositions "початки", as used in "об початки або після".
    "об початки" is the plural of "об початок". But "об початки або після" makes no sense to me. And I can hardly think of any phrases which "об початок" can be used in. Perhaps something like: "..вдарився об початок відбійника".

    There's sites, like this one, where you can look up inflected forms of any word.
     

    iezik

    Senior Member
    Slovenian
    Thanks both, jazyk and galakha.

    What regards "об початки", I found it on internet, I'm not sure if its' written correctly: ФРАХТ за умовами договору може оплачуватися повністю при підписанні коносамента або в два прийоми: при підписанні коносамента і в порту вивантаження при отриманні вантажу (об початки або після закінчення розвантаження).

    I wondered if Ukrainian also sometimes (like Russian e.g. край: о крае, в краю, на краю) requires or allows different case endings depending on preposition.
     

    galakha

    Member
    Ukrainian
    It's probaly one of those machine-translation issues. "об початки" is simply nonsense.

    I wondered if Ukrainian also sometimes (like Russian e.g. край: о крае, в краю, на краю) requires or allows different case endings depending on preposition.
    Obviously it does.

    край=> в/до/на краю; про/під/за край; над/під краєм.
    місце=> в/на місці; до/з місця; про місце.
     

    iezik

    Senior Member
    Slovenian
    Oh, again I should have written a bit more.

    The usual model for the Russian nouns lists 6 cases. Both the prepositions "о" and "в" can be used with either accusative or locative case. When used in locative for "конец", the forms (in singular locative) are "о конце" and "в конце".

    Some words (e.g. край) however use different endings in singular (locative) depending on prepositions. One possibility is then (as in the linked wiktionary) to say that these words have additional case, not only the usual locative (предложный), but another locative (местый). Anyway, the typical forms are "о крае" and "в краю". We could also say that the locative depends on preposition.

    Can this happen in Ukrainian, too? Slovnyk.ua shows two forms of locative singular for "край": краю, краї. Galakha, you've already shown example "в краю". When is the form "краї" used? Can it be with preposition "в", depending on style, or can it be used with other words?
     

    galakha

    Member
    Ukrainian
    I should've mentioned, or maybe you know it already, that prepositions "в" and "у" act in Ukrainian in a similar way as articles "a" and "an" do in English. Meaning that they are used interchangeably in order to avoid too many consonants/vowels in a row. So in terms of grammar "в" equals "у".

    Now. When "край" means an area/region, you can say either "в краю" оr "в краї". Either way, "край" takes a locative case. The choice, as you said, may depend on an author's style or their try to make lines rhyme. To me "в краї" sounds a bit archaic.

    When "край" means an edge, you say "на краю". "Край" also takes a locative case here. Although there are two examples of using "на краї" on Google Books, those sound awkward.

    But with preposition "до", whichever of the meanings "край" is used in, you say only "до краю". "Край" takes a genitive case here.
     
    < Previous | Next >
    Top