un bougnoule restera un bougnoule

cirrus

Senior Member
UK English
The context for this is an article in Le Monde about the riots.

I can't find it in any dictionary I have to hand.

Tu vois le délire du premier ministre ? Dans ce pays, un bougnoule restera un bougnoule.

Any ideas anyone?

Thanks for your help in advance
 
  • clairedbf

    New Member
    FRENCH
    a bougnoule is a person from north africa, it's a slang word (quiet old)

    it just means that foreigners will always be foreigners...
     

    Gordo

    Senior Member
    Scotland, English
    Hi Cirrus, I think clairedbf's answer is diplomatically pc. In English the unfortunate rendering would be 'a wog is still a wog'. Gordo.
     

    voyager

    New Member
    Australia
    C'est la même chose, on la voit dans "Le Monde" juste aujourd'hui:
    font chier, les bougnoules

    Merci pour l'avoir expliqué on ne trouve ça facilement dans un dictionnaire
     

    Staarkali

    Senior Member
    I don't know about wog but bougnoule is very offensive for maghrebin or French people from maghrebin descendance (therefore try to avoid it when addressing them if you are trying to make friend :) ). Equivalents include rital for people with Italian blood, schleu for German or rosebeef for English.
     

    jlvlacroix

    Member
    Français, Belgique
    Bougnoule est un terme très offensant signifiant noir ou musulman, selon que l'on a été/est confronté à l'un ou à l'autre en ce qui concerne l'immigration ou les colonies.
    Equivalent à coon ou neger aux E.-U.
     

    joelooc

    Senior Member
    French (Provence)
    Il n'y a aucun équivalent d'un pays à un autre pour les termes discriminatoires basés sur les différences ethniques ou raciales. Le public ciblé étant chaque fois spécifiquement caractérisé par le public émetteur en fonction de l'effet souhaité et de la période considérée.
     

    jlvlacroix

    Member
    Français, Belgique
    a bougnoule is a person from north africa, it's a slang word (quiet old)
    Il est vrai que j'aurais dû préciser que je répondais à clairedbf.
    Et oui, il est clair que pour coon et neger, il n'y a aucun doute quant au "public ciblé".
     

    JClaudeK

    Senior Member
    Français France, Deutsch (SW-Dtl.)
    un terme très offensant signifiant noir ou musulman [....] Equivalent à coon ou neger aux E.-U.
    Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ça.
    En France métropolitaine, il y a eu un glissement de sens, ce terme offensant désigne (presque exclusivement) un Maghrébin ou un Arabe :
    bougnoule
    Appellation insultante envers les Maghrébins ou les Arabes.
     

    jlvlacroix

    Member
    Français, Belgique
    Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ça.
    En France métropolitaine, il y a eu un glissement de sens, ce terme offensant désigne (presque exclusivement) un Maghrébin ou un Arabe :
    Reconnaissez comme moi, qu'il n'y a pas que la France :))
    bougnoule
    1. Nègre ou métis
    2. Nord-Africain indigène
     

    Kecha

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Je pense que jvlacroix voulait dire qu'appeler un Arabe "bougnoule" est du même niveau d'insulte et de mépris raciste que d'appeler un noir avec le "n word" (et non que l'un serait la traduction littérale de l'autre, les contextes géographiques, historiques, ethniques et migratoires étant différents).
     

    ain'ttranslationfun?

    Senior Member
    US English
    I've read the definition of "bougnole" as '(péj.) noir ou Maghrébin', too, but I think it's mostly used for the latter. In English, "bougnole" would be "raghead" (also in GB "sand nigger", I think). Both are "deadly insults" - à éviter!

    Note also the spelling: "nigger" for "the n-word".
     

    JClaudeK

    Senior Member
    Français France, Deutsch (SW-Dtl.)
    it's mostly used for the latter
    :thumbsup:
    J'en ai discuté avec mon entourage et on ne voulait même pas me croire qu'à l'origine ça s'utilisait (aussi) pour désigner les noirs.

    L"équivalent de 'bougnoule' pour une personne noire est "bamboula" !
     
    Last edited:

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    So I am being faced with this word. While there is the discussion about whether you can use the word 'wog' for North Africans, in a rude and historic context, (the seventies and eighties), could it ever be used for someone who is just working-class?

    Here is my context:

    Quand il t’aperçoit à travers le passe‑plat, il jure qu’il ne mangera jamais ici parce que « c’est de la cuisine de bougnoule » et que de toute façon, il a ses habitudes au restaurant du Parc, « une étoile au Michelin ». Tu ne supportes tellement pas sa présence que tu dis à Nicole de partir, que tu finiras la salle et le bar.

    The cook in question is white working-class. He has been to Algeria in the war and there is mention briefly he liked the food there but he is absolutely white and his cuisine is real vintage French cooking of that era (chicken chasseur, steak-frites, fromage de tête etc). Have you ever heard of using this term in relation to just working class food or is it that the person putting down the cook is just so snobbish and idiotic that he would be happy to call it "wog food" or maybe immigrant food?

    Clearly in the other contexts of the book immigrant/wog is the correct term?

    Le contrôle expert de l’ouvrier hautement qualifié est remplacé par un dispositif visuel binaire : une lumière verte, la pièce usinée est aux bonnes dimensions, une lumière rouge, elle ne respecte pas les cotations. « Même un bougnoule qui ne sait ni lire ni écrire reconnaît les couleurs », pérore un professeur.

    (the narrator is learning mechanical engineering) at school.

    Thanks!

    Syrita
     

    arundhati

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Hello,
    This word is still very, very offensive.
    You could hear it in an ironic way said by someone from North Africa, with the same idea that Afro-Americans could use "nigga".
    On it's own, it's nothing less than an insult.
     

    ZarLa

    Senior Member
    In English, "bougnoule" would be "raghead" (also in GB "sand nigger", I think). Both are "deadly insults" - à éviter!
    Note also the spelling: "nigger" for "the n-word".
    Bougnoule's also a deadly racist insult !!!

    You could hear it in an ironic way said by someone from North Africa, with the same idea that Afro-Americans could use "nigga".
    Not exactly, we've never heard and will never heard a group of young men saying "bougnoule" at the end of every single phrase (as some americans do with the n-word).
     
    Last edited:

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    I think the narrator is using it because essentially a lot of offensive terms were used as a matter of course in the seventies. People thought it was OK to use the term wog, etc. That's the point and that's not in question here whether it was insulting or not. What I am asking is why would someone use it to refer to a white, working class chef? Nothing to do with US use of the word 'niggah' presently or historically.

    Thanks!

    S
     

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    Aah, OK. That helps me a lot. Muck might be good. As would shit. Thank you! It would be nice to get the idea of his racism though too. Maybe greasy muck?
     

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    Except the food isn't. The book is a celebration of French cooking. That's the problem! It's working class food which by association is immigrant, common food? That's all I can think.
     

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    Yes, I will have to keep it a neutral pejorative word as there simply isn't an equivalent in English.
     

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    No I don't have a problem with wog , it just doesn't make sense in the context. So I will say something like 'shit'?
     

    arundhati

    Senior Member
    French - France
    I can't see how "shit" would fit in that case. You say "wog" doesn't make sense here because the cook is not North African, but again, you're editing the original meaning.
     

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    Yes. probably. I may use wog. I'm still thinking about if it's useable for North Africans. Maybe at the time the worse thing you could say to someone was that your food was like 'wog food' or 'dirty immigrant food'.
     

    arundhati

    Senior Member
    French - France
    There's no ambiguity for me in what the speaker says, he definitely wants to depreciate the cuisine, because it's the kind of food "those people" would make. If he just wanted to say that the food is awful, he would never use that kind of words. It's nothing but a racist comment.
     

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    Yes, it shows his racism and that he wants to put down working-class French food. I've just got to get that in English. Maybe 'like wog food'. The like makes all the difference in fact. And although it's not there in the French, it's implied, that implication was what I didn't understand, along with the fact it was referring to the food not him. I was taking it too literally.
     

    iuytr

    Senior Member
    french
    Dans le contexte du post #18 de Syrita (french cook), il s'agit sans doute d'une insulte générique, en quelque sorte ,basée sur une appréciation raciste de la qualité du travail d'une communauté , comme "travail d'arabe". Cela veut dire travail bâclé, de mauvaise qualité. Voir aussi "travail de cochon".
    Cela ne veut pas dire que la cuisine s'inspire des traditions culinaires d'Afrique du Nord, ni que le cuisinier est arabe.
    Ici , il rajoute un niveau d'insulte en utilisant le terme bougnoule.
     

    arundhati

    Senior Member
    French - France
    I agree with iuytr, there's nothing "logical" in the words chosen to describe the cuisine, it's just a racist insult, and as it is, doesn't need to be relevant in the speaker's mouth.
     

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    Thank you. We don't have an equivalent saying in French. In fact immigrant work is often regarded as usually better in the current times (Polish plumbers) lol so I have to get the idea of the French tradition (back then) of saying work by foreigners was bad and the fact he is a racist. No sweat! lol.

    That's why 'like wog food' captures all the nuances and the insult and the stupidity of the person insulting.
     

    iuytr

    Senior Member
    french
    The speaker can be a racist. Today , he would be considered as such , but a few years ago , this could be just considered a "normal" way to speak.:mad: (and even more in the 70').

    En septembre 2016 il signale ces propos à la responsable des ressources humaines, lors d’un entretien. La direction lui répond en novembre de la même année, par lettre recommandée :

    Certains de vos collègues ont reconnu que l’expression "travail d’arabe" pouvait être employée sur les chantiers, mais qu’à aucun moment, elle ne visait une personne en particulier. Elle a été employée pour qualifier un travail " mal fait, bâclé ". Courante dans le milieu du bâtiment, cette expression provocante et péjorative ne saurait qualifier un comportement raciste à votre égard.
    Elle mentionne également que l’entreprise ne peut cautionner de telles expressions, et qu’un travail de sensibilisation sera réalisé auprès des collègues de Rachid O.

    source : «On me renvoie toujours à ma condition de "bougnoule"»
     
    Last edited:

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    Politcal correctness is about getting rid of words that people who are not necessarily racist used but when you analyse that word it actually is racist. Some say it's gone too far. Wog and nigger have always been pejorative I think, negro not. So I have to consider that now. A blackie might not have been then and is now. The next problem I have is can you use wog for an Arab? I don't expect anyone to answer that but the problem is we don't have the history France has with North Africa. We have a word 'paki' for someone from Pakistan (an ex colony) that was commonplace in the seventies (the Paki shop) and not considered racist then but is considered racist now. No such equivalent for an Arab...
     

    iuytr

    Senior Member
    french
    You could find the same thing with "travail de portos" portos been a slang for portugais when there was a lot of immigrants from Portugal working in France in the building industry (50' and 60') .The people from North Africa came a bit later but the derogatory expression remained, just changing portos into arabe/bougnoule.

    Edit : You can also find the less common "travail de polak", polak is slang for polish. It originated from a precedent immigration movement from Poland when polish came to work in french mining industry around the 20' and 30'.
     
    Last edited:

    arundhati

    Senior Member
    French - France
    You certainly have a choice to make, personnaly I think the most important is to find a racist equivalent, more than a direct translation. As it's been already said, the cook is not North African so the accuracy of the comment is not central.
     

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    'Like dirty Arab food' 'Like dirty Arab muck'. I don't know of any UK insult for Arabs/North Africans then or now. Wog could possibly be used for anyone olive/dark skinned and foreign back then.
     

    Blougouz

    Senior Member
    french-France
    Steve McQ?... so depending on the context could it be like:
    Shitty food, crap, low key food join...? In contrast with the one star Michelin restaurant?
     

    syrita

    Senior Member
    English [UK]
    Yes but it's good to get the sense he is likening it to Arab food as the ultimate insult. Later in the book, the protagonist discovers North African food and loves it so you need this sense of irony. It is touching on the fact that back in the seventies people were racist and saw foreign food as disgusting.
     
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