Unknown language: БАЬАВБ SENIN

numes

Member
italian (Italy)
How descripted in the title i have found a medal where the script is a mix with a mix of cyrillic an latin alphabet:
" БАЬАВБ SENIN " if it's a "S"
I think the words near a semitic or turc linguage.
It's possible recognize hebrew roots : ba, avb or nin related at the patriarcal scene.
What your opinion?

On the obverese the medal show the famous Myron's discobol.
You can see the reverse with the script here: www zeno.ru
than enter the number in the search 39335
(sorry but i don't understant because it's so difficult add an external link)

Many tanks in previous,
Marco - italy
 
  • Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    It's very unlikely that such a mix of scripts could be ever used.
    Could you please give direct link to that image? I failed to find it following your instructions.
     

    numes

    Member
    italian (Italy)
    thanks Nico! if I try to post a link wordreference give my this answer:

    You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 30 posts or more.
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    Try here Maroseika :)
    OK, Niko, now I can see it.
    Do you know approximate age of this coin?
    I noticed there in your link a version about some North-Caucasian alphabet, but in fact they haven't use it before 1920th, they used arabic or Latin alphabets or none at all.
    However I don't think turkish language may help. The peoples living there do not speak any turkish language. They speak Ibero-Caucasian or Adyg family language, Osetinian belong to iranian family, Ingushs and Chechens speak on the Nakh language .
     

    numes

    Member
    italian (Italy)
    The medal it's not mine...
    two soldiers given it at my friend's grandmother in Salerno (south Italy) during the IIWW for foods. May be americans. She is dead and my friend don't remember well the story.
    However the medal is old, made before 1940 ca.
     

    numes

    Member
    italian (Italy)
    However, Maroseika, what do you reed on this medal...have you idea?
    have you detected the characters "n" and "S"?
    although this could just look like an 'n' and simply be a typesetting
    issue and it just looks like an N.
    Could you suggest your translitteration?
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    However, Maroseika, what do you reed on this medal...have you idea?
    have you detected the characters "n" and "S"?
    although this could just look like an 'n' and simply be a typesetting
    issue and it just looks like an N.
    Could you suggest your translitteration?
    Well, I guess it's E, not F.
    As for Ь I can say so far only one thing: in old Russian it meant short sound E, but after the 14-15 centuary it means only the softness of the preceding consonant. But A is a sonant!
    Also it's impossible that after 1920 any of Caucasian poeples might produce their own medals.
    I need some more time to talk with some people and check other alphabets.
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    I don't think this might be a key to the enigma, but nevertheless, can't omit: the second word can be read also as armenian "tbolo" or "tbovlov". Unfortunately I cannot check so far if there is anything like that in this language.
    By the way, how can you interprete the image? An old man giving some drink to women and children? Do you see any correspndence with the sujette in the reverse side?
     

    Brian P

    Senior Member
    How descripted As described in the title I have found a medal where the script is a mixture with a mixture of Cyrillic and Latin alphabets:
    " БАЬАВБ SENIN " if it's a "S"
    I think the words near are close to a Semitic or turc linguage. Turkic language
    It's possible to recognize Hebrew roots : ba, avb or nin related at the patriachal scene.
    What's your opinion?

    On the obverse the medal shows the famous Myron's discobolus.
    You can see the reverse with the script here: www zeno.ru
    than enter the number in the search 39335
    (Sorry but I don't understand why it's so difficult to add an external link)

    Many thanks in previous advance
    Marco - italy

    Also it's "puzzle" not "puzzel".
    Excuse me if I correct your mistakes, Marco. I hope it helps you in your study of English.

    Auguri,

    Brian
     

    robbie_SWE

    Senior Member
    Trilingual: Swedish, Romanian & English
    Hm...senin (from Latin serenus) means "sunny" in Romanian, but we don't have the cyrillic alphabet.

    Good luck with your quest!

    :) robbie
     

    Chazzwozzer

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    Actually, if we say "senin" part is Turkish, then it must be "SENİN" not "SENIN"

    ı-I
    i-İ

    Ah, I don't know but I really wonder. Two words, in different alphabets. Go figure!
     

    modus.irrealis

    Senior Member
    English - Canada
    I was going to post this in the Other Languages topic but maybe it makes more sense here.

    How descripted in the title i have found a medal where the script is a mix with a mix of cyrillic an latin alphabet:
    " БАЬАВБ SENIN " if it's a "S"

    It is possible that it isn't an S, but the Cyrillic letter dzelo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dze), which seems to be only used in Macedonian and Old Church Slavonic, and looking at the picture of the medal along with the letter from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Cyrillic_alphabet, they do look very similar, so maybe the whole thing is in Cyrillic.

    So does something like dzenin (if those are n's in the picture) mean something in any Slavic languages?
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    I was going to post this in the Other Languages topic but maybe it makes more sense here.



    It is possible that it isn't an S, but the Cyrillic letter dzelo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dze), which seems to be only used in Macedonian and Old Church Slavonic, and looking at the picture of the medal along with the letter from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Cyrillic_alphabet, they do look very similar, so maybe the whole thing is in Cyrillic.

    So does something like dzenin (if those are n's in the picture) mean something in any Slavic languages?
    Yes, we also thought firstly about the Macedonian, but there is nor Ь nor n in their alphabeth.
    But the letter (n) can be also interpreted like П (latin "p"). In this case at least each word would content signs of only one alphabet: first word is written in cyrilic and the second one in a permittable mix cyr/lat. However the second word read in cyrillic - "dzepip" does not resemble me anything in Slavic.
    As for the coining style, one my acquaintance, art specialist says it's similar to Transcaucasian style. But sujette is so universal that gives no key at all. And combination with the discobolos of Miron in reverse is also very strange.
    Can't it be just a joke - I mean somebody produced this medal trying to make it "exotic" and in this purpose used exotic cyrillic signs without any understanding their meaning?
    You know, like one would do to imitate chinese hierogliphs.
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    One more idea: as we see, second Б differs slightly from thefirst one. Maybe it's not cyrillic Б, but abkhasian "g" (you may look it here and compare http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Абхазская_письменность.
    Abkhasian origin has very good cultural explanation: they always were proud having (as they think) their origin from the acient Greeks (Colhis, Phasis, the Golden Fleece and all that).
    Therefore discobolus is quite pertinent.
    But very big problem unfortunately is that Abkhazians had a very intricated history; they had got a lot of different alphabets since 1862 when the have got the first one on the cyrillic base (37 signes), in 1909 modified (55 signes, incl. latin signs).
    In 1928 they have shifted to completely latin alphabeth, then in 1938 - to the Georgian, and finally in 1955 - back to Cyrillic.
    they don't have Ь now, but could have it before, because even now they have Ы, ГЬ, КЬ, ШЬ and ХЬ.
    Therefore maybe we can see in the medal some intermediate transitive mix of symbols.
    I'll try to check this idea with Abkazian vocabulary.
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    Here http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-abkhaz.html you may see examples of Abkhazian texts and notice there a letter resembling "n" from the medal. It's "h",but in the uppercase it looks very much like big "n".
    Unfortunately there is no single Ь, only after vowels, being a part of them. But maybe it's not Ь at all? Actually it resembles a bit georgian letter sounding like "S" - you may lok at it in the last right column of the table at the previous link.
     

    numes

    Member
    italian (Italy)
    In true i thought this scrip difficult to solve, but not so close to be impossible!
    I appreciated all our answers which read with interest, in particular Maroseika investigations.
    I have little to say about, i have to add only my sincerely thanks at everybody...also at Brian'correction at my poor english:)
     

    numes

    Member
    italian (Italy)
    Hello again,
    My early hypothesis was about a possible Hebrew roots in the words.
    This mix of Cyrillic and Latin characters led to locate the language in the Caucasian area. Well, please to read on Wikipedia:
    Juhuri language

    How to have a details on this so few spoken language?

    I hypothesize also that "ba'av senin" could mean in Hebrew "The beautiful father's day"...
    I open a thread here in the Hebrew language ...and waiting confirmations.

    Greetings.
    Marco
     

    amikama

    a mi modo
    עברית
    I hypotize also that "ba'av senin" could mean in hebrew " The beatiful father's day"...
    "Senin" doesn't exist in Hebrew, but "ba'av" could mean "in the father" in Hebrew. But then why is it written in the Cyrillic alphabet and not in the Hebrew alphabet!? :confused: I highly doubt it's Hebrew.
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    Hello again,
    my early hypotesis was about a possible herew roots in the words...
    this mix of cyrillic and latin characters led to locate the language in the caucasian area. Well, please to read on Wikipedia:
    Juhuri language

    How to have a details on this so few spocke language?

    I hypotize also that "ba'av senin" could mean in hebrew " The beatiful father's day"...
    I open a thread here in the hebrew language ...and waiting conferms

    Greetings.
    Marco
    Juhuri (Mountain Jews) or Tats (Dagestan, Northern Caucasus) have never been Hebrew speaking, though used Hebrew alphabeth (being Jews in the religious aspect) till 1930 , when they changed to Latin; since 1938 they write in Cyrillic, but they don't have Ь after А.
    However, the most important is that they speak Iranian group language, close to Tajic, and not Semitic.

    By the way, one of my friends wonders could it be not a medal, but a coin?
    What size is it?
    Is there any nothc or nurl in the rim? His idea was that the first sign of the second word is not a letter, but a figure 5.
     

    OldAvatar

    Senior Member
    Romanian
    "
    Tishah Ba'Av
    Tishah Ba'Av, the Ninth of Av, is the saddest day on the Jewish calendar. Jews around the world gather together and mourn their state of spiritual exile, the Holy Temple, destroyed, not once, but twice, and the diaspora that has been the home of tragedy after tragedy.

    So, Ba'av is a mourning day celebrated by Jewish. "Senin" means "Clear sky, sunny day" in Romanian. The mixture of Kirillic and Latin alphabet could be explained if the coin had something to do with Moldova, or former Bassarabia. Since a considerable population used to be of Jewish origin, it might be true. I'm not saying that it is, but it may be a clue...

    Best regards

    Edit: Now I saw that it is a coin and not a medal. And it looks much older... :|
     
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