urban project

peter4freedom

New Member
indonesia
Hello there,

this thread sounds more heavy then it is :) I'm actually doing an urban art project against violance and I really would appreciate it to have some help. I'm gonna do a lot of other translations as well but arabic has got me stumped. :eek:

I would like the following to be translated, please:
-Person feels part of a poor or discriminated minority.
-Person isolates him or herself from family and friends.
-Person thinks his or her community is too tolerant towards society.
-Person is convinced by the group that violence is an acceptable means to an end.
-Person acts out controle over other members of the group.
-Person is in denial of alternative or critical information.

Sorry if my english is not soo good. I hope you get the idea ;)

Thanks and waves

Petee
 
  • Josh_

    Senior Member
    U.S., English
    Hello Peter,

    Welcome to the forums.

    I have a quick question. Is this a list in which the first part of a statement is given and a list of reasons that fulfill that statement? If it is might I suggest rewording it:

    Committing acts of violence may be appealing when a person:
    (or whatever your statement may be)

    - feels part of a poor or discriminated minority.
    - isolates him or herself from family and friends.
    - thinks his or her community is too tolerant towards society.
    - is convinced by the group that violence is an acceptable means to an end.
    - acts out control over other members of the group.
    - is in denial of alternative or critical information.

    When the same word appears in each reason there is no need to rewrite it each time.

    Of course, I do not know the exact nature of your project so this is just a suggestion.

    I'll work on translations and post them if someone doesn't get to it first.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Welcome to the forums. :)

    I agree with Josh about the redundancy, but I have translated your sentences as you gave them to us.

    I should point out that in #1 there is an error in the English - it should be "Person feels part of a poor or discriminated-against minority" - and that #3 does not make much sense to me.​

    -يشعر الشخص أنه ينتمي إلى أقلية مكونة من فقراء أو أشخاص يواجهون العنصرية.
    -يعزل الشخص نفسه عن عائلته وأصدقائه.
    -يظن الشخص أن جماعته متقبلة للمجتمع إلى حد زائد.
    -يقتنع الشخص من قبل المجموعة أن العنف وسيلة مقبولة للوصول إلى غاية معينة.
    -يعامل الشخص بقية أعضاء المجموعة بروح سيطرة.
    -ينكر الشخص وجود معلومات بديلة أو حاسمة.
     

    peter4happiness

    New Member
    Indonesia
    Hi guys, (yes it's me :) ) thanks for the welcome and all your great help. Just what I needed. Although I hope Josh can also make a translation. You can never have enough ;p I did the repetition because the title needs to be strong and to the point (good point though Josh)

    Elroy is the sentence wrong? Can you point it out? I hope i corrected it. So now it's:

    The birth of violence

    Comes to be when a person
    -feels part of a poor or discriminated-against minority.
    -isolates him or herself from family and friends.
    -thinks his or her community is too tolerant towards the rest of society.
    -is convinced by a violent group that violence is an acceptable means to an end.
    -starts acting out controle over other members of the violent group.
    -denies alternative or critical information.


    elroy said:
    Welcome to the forums. :)

    I agree with Josh about the redundancy, but I have translated your sentences as you gave them to us.

    I should point out that in #1 there is an error in the English - it should be "Person feels part of a poor or discriminated-against minority" - and that #3 does not make much sense to me.​

    -يشعر الشخص أنه ينتمي إلى أقلية مكونة من فقراء أو أشخاص يواجهون العنصرية.
    -يعزل الشخص نفسه عن عائلته وأصدقائه.
    -يظن الشخص أن جماعته متقبلة للمجتمع إلى حد زائد.
    -يقتنع الشخص من قبل المجموعة أن العنف وسيلة مقبولة للوصول إلى غاية معينة.
    -يعامل الشخص بقية أعضاء المجموعة بروح سيطرة.
    -ينكر الشخص وجود معلومات بديلة أو حاسمة.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    It's much clearer now.

    Updated translation: يظن (الشخص) أن جماعته متقبلة لبقية المجتمع إلى حد زائد
     

    Josh_

    Senior Member
    U.S., English
    I wanted to get back here, but I kept forgetting. I have just a few comments and ideas.

    What about:
    يشعر الشخص أنه ينتمي ألى أقلية فقيرة أو متحامل عليها.

    for "Person feels part of a poor or discriminated minority."

    Also, العنصرية only means racism, right? And racism is only one kind of discrimination? So how about التحامل as a more general concept of discrimination?:

    "أقلية تواجه التحامل"

    And then for "Person thinks his or her community is too tolerant towards society" how about

    " يظن الشخص أن جماعته متساهلة مع المجتمع أكثر مما ينبغي" as another possibility?

    And for "critical information" I believe معلومات انتقادية would be better? حاسم means critical in terms of being decisive or definite, but I gather from the context that Peter is intending critical in the sense of relating to criticism -- "the person is denying criticism of his/her chosen lifestyle.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I agree about تحامل.
    متساهلة is a good suggestion, although it means "lenient." In this context, the meanings of "tolerant" and "lenient" are very close so I think it would work.
    أكثر مما ينبغي is also a good alternative.
    As for "critical," if your interpretation is correct (which having thought about it some more I think you are) then of course you're right. :)
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Josh Adkins said:

    يشعر الشخص أنه ينتمي إلى أقلية فقيرة أو متحامل عليها.​

    There's another word that may have another English meaning, but I think it can fit here, specially that it's kind of used a lot these days : مضطهدة muDThada
    You summarize the meaning in only one word, instead of a clause متحامل عليها/تواجه التحامل

    " يظن الشخص أن جماعته متساهلة مع المجتمع أكثر مما ينبغي" as another possibility?
    I prefer متسامحة because متساهلة assumes a certain degree of superiority of the person who, sort of, let go/forgive a lot (can't find the proper term, sorry) to the others. While التسامح is the more common term for tolreance.

    And for "critical information" I believe معلومات انتقادية would be better? حاسم means critical in terms of being decisive or definite, but I gather from the context that Peter is intending critical in the sense of relating to criticism -- "the person is denying criticism of his/her chosen lifestyle.
    Fine. But I prefer, from the same root, the adj. نقدية , for no "academic" reason :)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I would translate مضطهدة as "persecuted," which is not quite the same as "discriminated against." You can be persecuted because you're discriminated against, but the two do not mean the same thing semantically.

    متسامحة is also a good suggestion, but it really depends on the connotation of "tolerant" that is being conveyed. For example, if you use it to translate a sentence like "You should be tolerant toward people of other races" it would sound as though being from another race were a crime or error that needed to be forgiven!
     

    Mery_Dian

    Member
    Moroccan Arabic - Morocco
    Josh Adkins said:
    العنصرية only means racism, right? And racism is only one kind of discrimination? So how about التحامل as a more general concept of discrimination?
    Discrimination can also be translated as التمييز العنصري or التفرقة العنصرية
    So I would suggest :
    يشعر الشخص أنه ينتمي إلى أقلية فقيرة أو تعاني من التمييز العنصري

    Another suggestion for :
    - Starts acting out controle over other members of the violent group.
    يحاول الشخص فرض سيطرته على باقي أفراد المجموعة العنيفة
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Mery_Dian said:


    يحاول الشخص فرض سيطرته على باقي أفراد المجموعة العنيفة
    I don't mean to be nit-picky but the English sentence says that he does act out control over other members of the group and not that he tries to. :)
     

    ayed

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Saudi)
    Elroy's translation is modified


    يشعر الفرد بأنه من أقلية فقيرة أو مضطهده عنصرياً.
    -ينعزل بنفسه عن عائلته وأصدقائه.
    -يظن بأن جماعته متسامحة جداً مع بقية الناس.
    -يقتنع من مجموعة ما بأن العنف وسيلة مقبولة لغاية ما.
    -يبدأ بسيطرته على بقية أفراد المجموعة.
    -يرفض أي حلول بديلة أو حاسمة.
     

    Mery_Dian

    Member
    Moroccan Arabic - Morocco
    elroy said:
    I don't mean to be nit-picky
    Not at all ! And I guess this is the point of these forums : to get as close as possible to a sound translation and figure out some linguistic issues.
    elroy said:
    But the English sentence says that he does act out control over other members of the group and not that he tries to. :)
    Yes, of course. Sorry, I don't know why I was thinking of tries instead of starts when typing the Arabic sentence. :eek:
    Thank you for having noticed this silly mistake.
    The sentence should therefore be :
    يشرع/يبدأ الشخص في فرض سيطرته على باقي أفراد المجموعة العنيفة
    [/ rtl]
     
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