Urdu: <ādāb ārz> versus <taslīm> آداب عرض/ تسليم

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panjabigator

Senior Member
Am. English
(Before I ask my question, I'd like to ask all you regular posters if we can approve some regulated mode for transliteration. I've just learned how to type ā (and so forth) on my mac and would be happy to explain how to do so in a PM to any interested forero. If you believe another method is better suited, than by all means tell me. I also cannot decide if I should use a ˆor a ¯ to depict certain sounds accurately.)

<ādarnīye mitro tatha azīz dosto>:D

While living in Lucknow, I found a live and kicking <ādāb> culture within the Urdu speaking echelons, however I found that the typical adaber (feminine: adabette) was, irrespective of religion, an older Urdu speaker or an educated Urdu speaker. Many other Urdu speakers would just salaam me, and this perhaps alludes to a widening tendency to use Islamic greetings over secular greetings, but I digress. (We could even expand to "Allah Hafiz" becoming prevalent to "Khuda Hafiz," or even a religious breakdown to Sunni-Shi'a distinct locutions. I have some interesting theories...)

What I never seemed to hear was <taslīm>. Granted, I have only heard <taslīm> in the movies, and my Urdu instructors claimed that the greeting is neuter, despite a higher frequency with women. I'd like to know your thoughts on these two phrases. How often do you hear these greetings used, and if you ever do, by whom and what age range? Are you ever surprised by them, and are these phrases indicative of a Lucknavi speaker (I haven't heard them used by anyone else). I hate to make a sweeping generalization, but my belief is that these phrases are in disuse in Pakistan; speakers my age (from Lahore, Azad Kashmir, and Karachi) always seem surprised when I adab them. I'd also be interested to know if other S. Asian languages use them; i.e, would a Panjabi Muslim use them?

I look forward to your remarks.

PG
 
  • BP.

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    I have vivid memories of <aaDaab> being used as a routine around the household when I was younger (eg. <aaDaab am-mi huzoor>), but it has fallen into disuse because it is incompatible with other peoples' greeting terms.

    Last weekend a friend was surprised when I aadaab-ed him and said he thought the word was particular to the BBC Urdu Service, and they had it to be somewhat compatible to Hindi!

    Don't be mistaken though, the word's an Urdu thoroughbred! And you can unmistakably stamp the people using it original Urduphones. At least in Karachi.

    <aDab aaDaab> means manners, etiquette, <rakh rakhaao>.

    I haven't really heard <Tasleem> being actively used in this sense, though <aadaab o tasleem> is a description. I guess tasleem could be a reply-word.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Yes, adaab has become less frequent though whenever we meet our non-Muslim friends from South Asia, esp. those who are older than us, we still use this.

    tasleem / tasleemaat is still used amongst our family and friends esp. when writing, as: tasleemaat arz heiN … and adaab arz / adaab arz heiN is still common with us. We often use these together with salaam or, in my family as-salaamu ‘alaykum (= peace upon you [literal transl.] = peace be with you [idiomatic transl.]) is also used together with these.

    BTW, salaam and tasleem are linked via the root s-l-m. So, the second verbal form sallama gives you tasleem.

    tasleem is also used as: tasleem shudah = recognised / accepted

    There is actually nothing religious per se about salaam. As you can see we are just wishing each other peace. …. as for which is better or more right: allah hafiz vs. khuda hafiz , I am appalled at the pseudo-religiosity this has come to represent!! Say no more.

    Generally speaking, there has been a decline in adab-aadaab! Manners and morals are considered ‘old fashioned’ by some. As we often say to our friends:

    aajkal beshtar gharooN meiN adab-aadaab o tahzeeb ka guzar hi nahi hua hai!!

    In most households these days manners and etiquette haven’t taken root!!
     

    Todd The Bod

    Senior Member
    English-Midwest
    Every time I've used "adab arz" since my textbooks said it had no religious connotation or "myzaj sharif?" for "how are you" for that matter, all I got was blank stares. I've yet to meet someone who used the term.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Every time I've used "adab arz" since my textbooks said it had no religious connotation or "myzaj sharif?" for "how are you" for that matter, all I got was blank stares. I've yet to meet someone who used the term.
    I'm not surprised actually. We have steadily lost our adab-aadaab!

    mizaaj-e-shariif ought to be understood by Urdu speakers as shariif is used on an daily basis and mizaaj, also an Arabic borrowing like shariif, though used more in the higher register of Urdu, shuold be familiar to many Urdu-speakers would have come across it in the Quran. But it seems that is not the case.
     

    Todd The Bod

    Senior Member
    English-Midwest
    I'm not surprised actually. We have steadily lost our adab-aadaab!

    mizaaj-e-shariif ought to be understood by Urdu speakers as shariif is used on an daily basis and mizaaj, also an Arabic borrowing like shariif, though used more in the higher register of Urdu, shuold be familiar to many Urdu-speakers would have come across it in the Quran. But it seems that is not the case.

    What are the proper responses to these phrases (do I have to start a whole new thread for "myzaj sharif"?)?
     
    Last edited:

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    When people say اداب عرض, is it common to pronounce the izafat? I remember hearing it sans izafat in Lucknow, but I was corrected the other day and told otherwise. Thoughts?
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    When people say اداب عرض, is it common to pronounce the izafat? I remember hearing it sans izafat in Lucknow, but I was corrected the other day and told otherwise. Thoughts?

    No! We never put the izaafat?

    آداب عرض كرنا aadaab 3arDh karnaa = آداب پیش كرناaadaab pesh karnaa = to pay respects / give greetings

    آداب عرض aadaab 3arDh = greetings! / hello! / salut!


    You can also use the (even) more formal espression:


    aadaab pesh e xidmat hai.n آداب پیش خدمت ہیں = Greetings! - here you get an izaafat as shown above.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Yes, adaab has become less frequent though whenever we meet our non-Muslim friends from South Asia, esp. those who are older than us, we still use this.

    tasleem / tasleemaat is still used amongst our family and friends esp. when writing, as: tasleemaat arz heiN … and adaab arz / adaab arz heiN is still common with us. We often use these together with salaam or, in my family as-salaamu ‘alaykum (= peace upon you [literal transl.] = peace be with you [idiomatic transl.]) is also used together with these.

    BTW, salaam and tasleem are linked via the root s-l-m. So, the second verbal form sallama gives you tasleem.

    tasleem is also used as: tasleem shudah = recognised / accepted

    There is actually nothing religious per se about salaam. As you can see we are just wishing each other peace. …. as for which is better or more right: allah hafiz vs. khuda hafiz , I am appalled at the pseudo-religiosity this has come to represent!! Say no more.

    Generally speaking, there has been a decline in adab-aadaab! Manners and morals are considered ‘old fashioned’ by some. As we often say to our friends:

    aajkal beshtar gharooN meiN adab-aadaab o tahzeeb ka guzar hi nahi hua hai!!

    In most households these days manners and etiquette haven’t taken root!!
    One query Faylasoof SaaHib. In another (Urdu poetry) forum we usually greet each other with "aadaab 3arz hai" and NOT "aadaab 3arz haiN"! In addition to non-Urdu speaking individuals like me, there are a number of ahl-i-zabaan within the group too and they also use the singular "hai". Which is the correct version?
     

    Kahaani

    Senior Member
    I'm truly fascinated by these secular greetings! I know آداب means manners and تسلیم means recognition, but can anyone tell me the idea behind them, how did they come into being (especially because they are secular), what are they based on, what is their historical context? Because I think it would be kind of strange if you greeted someone with just saying manners. I can imagine it has something to do with the Mughal Era.

    بہت بہت شکریہ,
    Nigel
     

    UrduMedium

    Senior Member
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Nigel- aadaab is plural of adab, which in addition to meaning manners, also means respect and deference. As in "baRoN kaa adab, chhoToN kaa liHaaz". This meaning is at work in aadaab as a greeting, so aadaab meaning respects in this context.

    tasliim, as Faylasoof mentioned above is the verbal noun of sallama which would be an exaggerated form of salaam so tasliim is related to salaam.

    Also to repeat Faylasoof saahab, really there is nothing "religious" or "non-secular" about the salaam (as in assalaamu alaikum) as it is simply a greeting of peace. The optional add-on "wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu" (and grace and blessings of Allah) is what adds a religious flavor to it. But most of the times only the short form is used.

    But it is an interesting question as to what triggered these greetings (aadaab, tasliimaat) while the good old salaam was still pretty handy. I'm curious to know that too.
     

    UrduMedium

    Senior Member
    Urdu (Karachi)
    ^I'd like to know to know the answer to #12 also. I don't recall hearing 'aadaab 3arz haiN' either, almost always 'aadaab 3arz hai' or something like 'aadaab 3arz kartaa/ii huuN'.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Nigel- aadaab is plural of adab, which in addition to meaning manners, also means respect and deference. As in "baRoN kaa adab, chhoToN kaa liHaaz". This meaning is at work in aadaab as a greeting, so aadaab meaning respects in this context. [...]
    For this a short illustration by Ahmad Faraz:
    میکدہ میں کیا تکلف میکشی میں کیا حجاب
    بزمِ ساقی میں ادب آداب مت دیکھا کرو
    mai-kade meN kyaa takalluf mai-kashii meN kyaa Hijaab
    bazm-e-saaqii meN adab-aadaab mat dekhaa karo

     

    Vijay Bajwa

    New Member
    Punjabi
    Can one say "tasleem" in response to "wah wah" at a mushaira? What would be most appropo to say? I'm actually looking for such a emoji.
     

    Jashn

    Senior Member
    Canadian English
    I have friends who originally hail from the Lucknow area, and I've noticed that when 'aadaab' is used as a greeting, it's usually the younger generation to the older generation. The younger generation typically says salaam to one another. So I wonder if that's just an idiosyncrasy among my friends, or is the reason why Punjabigator hasn't heard people say it to him is because he's not old enough? Could that be a possible explanation?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I have friends who originally hail from the Lucknow area, and I've noticed that when 'aadaab' is used as a greeting, it's usually the younger generation to the older generation. The younger generation typically says salaam to one another. So I wonder if that's just an idiosyncrasy among my friends, or is the reason why Punjabigator hasn't heard people say it to him is because he's not old enough? Could that be a possible explanation?
    Jashn SaaHib/ah, I would say that the reason Punjabigator had n't heard the greeting with such frequency and tasliim/tasliimaat not at all is because of the general decline of Urdu language and Urdu "tahziib" in India (including areas known for Urdu such as Delhi and Lucknow). Like any language and the associated culture with it, the older generation has more of it than its decedents and this dilution continues to take place. You just compare the Pakistan TV and pakistan Radio programmes of a a few decades ago to what we have now and you will see how far this process has gone.
     

    Jashn

    Senior Member
    Canadian English
    That makes sense, thanks for the reply Qureshpor Saahib. And if you wish, saahib is correct for me- I wonder if it shouldn't be added to profiles like English pronouns these days? :)
     
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