Urdu: اپنے اپنے

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Stranger_, Jan 16, 2014.

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  1. Stranger_

    Stranger_ Senior Member

    Dear friends, I am having trouble understanding the difference between [اپنے اپنے] and [اپنے]. What is the difference, if any, between the two? I have also seen adjectives in this manner [e.g. بڑی بڑی]. Here is an example:

    دوسرے لوگ بھی آچکے ہیں۔ سب اپنے اپنے کاموں میں مصروف ہیں ، کیونکہ آج باہر سے کچھ لوگ بزنس کے لیے آرہے ہیں۔ ہماری کمپنی کے مالک کی میز پر سب فائلیں رکھی ہیں۔

    I have a few more questions if I may:

    • What is the root of the verb 'آچکے'? I could not find an entry for 'آچکنا', if this word exists at all!!
    • Is the last sentence in the passive voice? Because I see no subject there.

    Best Regards,
  2. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    aaqaa-ye-Stranger salaam.

    Yes, you are right about "aa chuknaa". This is the root of the verb "aanaa" added to the verb "chuknaa", the former verb means "to come" and the latter "to be completed/to be finished". So, in your sentence, the meaning is..

    Other people have also arrived. (They have completing their coming...have reached their destination)

    jab maiN khaanaa khaa chukaa to us kaa paiGhaam aayaa...

    When I had finished eating, his message came...

    "apne kaam" in the sentence would imply "their tasks". "apne apne kaam" means "their individual/personal tasks"..i.e. those tasks assigned to each one of them.

    Edit: Sorry I forgot about your last question.

    The verb "rakhnaa" is used both in an active sense and a passive sense.

    maiN ne rakhaa hai muHabbat apne afsaane kaa naam
    tum bhii kuchh achchhaa saa rakh do apne diivaane kaa naam

    maalik kii mez par sab faa'ileN rakhii (hu'ii) haiN.

    All the files are placed on the boss's table.

    Talking about files...
    کام کی کثرت سے گھبرایا تو اُس کے ذہن میں
    کروٹیں لینے لگی ہیں شاعری کی مُمکِنات
    اِک ذرا سی میز پر ہیں فائلوں کے چار ڈھیر
    فاعلاتن، فاعلاتن، فاعلاتن، فاعلات

    مسعود انور

    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  3. Stranger_

    Stranger_ Senior Member

    Thanks QP Saahib. And what about the repeated adjectives?
    I do apologize to the moderators for asking three separate questions in one thread. I did not pay attention. Have just now realized that because I usually ask forum members in private and shoot all the questions at once!!

    PS I gather that 'آ' is always attached to whatever comes after it, am I right? Because I have seen other similar ones [e.g. آکر-آرها].
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  4. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    aa-kar is not in the same vein as "aa chuknaa".

    aa-kar, jaa kar, khaa-kar, so-kar......

    Having arrived/gone/eaten/slept....

    This is what is called a "conjunctive participle".

    us ne Karachi pahuNch-kar mujhe xatt likhaa.

    He wrote me a letter after arriving at Karachi.

    aaNsuu poNchh kar vuh xaamosh ho ga'ii.

    Wiping her tears, she went quiet.

    Sometimes, instead of "kar", "ke" is used

    "ho ke majbuur mujhe us ne bhulaayaa ho gaa".

    She must have been compelled/forced to forget me.

    aa rahaa, jaa rahii etc is the continuous tense

    maiN kalkatte jaa rahaa thaa jab vuh rel-gaaRii meN mujhe milaa.

    I was going to/on my way to ...

    Repetition of adjectives adds emphasis or sometimes the sense of "somewhat/rather"

    tum kuchh udaas-udaas se lagte ho

    You are looking rather sad.

    baRii-baRii aaNkheN... very large eyes

    terii pyaarii pyaarii suurat..your (very) lovely features
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  5. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    The difference is as in these sentences:
    wuh log apne ghar ga'e وہ لوگ اپنے گھر گئے = all of them live in one house
    wuh log apne apne ghar ga'e وہ لوگ اپنے اپنے گھر گئے = they live in different houses and each of them went to their own houses.
  6. Alfaaz Senior Member

    Poetic example:

    ملی گل کو خوش بو ، مجھے مل گیا تو
    پسند اپنی اپنی ، نصیب اپنا اپنا

    مسرور انور (فلم: نصیب اپنا اپنا)
  7. Stranger_

    Stranger_ Senior Member

    Guys, this is another sentence in which the verb [چکنا] occurs:

    آج سب لوگ بہت تھک چکے ہیں

    Just to make sure that I have got it right, would you consider the following translation to be spot on?

    → Today, all people have become very tired.

  8. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ A good question, aaqaa-ye-stranger.

    Supposing your sentence was "aaj sab log bahut thake hu'e haiN". This is just a plain fact being conveyed. "Today, everyone is very tired". In your sentence, the implication is that they were n't tired before the day began but whatever the people have gone through, has made them very tired. So, your translation/understanding is spot on in my view. I might perhaps add..

    Today, everyone is already very tired...(so, we should think about having an early night).

    I don't know the context but I might have simply gone for..

    aaj sab log bahut thak ga'e haiN.

    For your question about repetition of words such as "apne apne", here is another example you could use when speaking with an Urdu speaking friend etc.

    kaise kaise log hamaare jii ko jalaane aa jaate haiN
    apne apne Gham ke fasaane hameN sunaane aa jaate haiN

    Munir Niyazi
  9. Dib Senior Member

    Bengali (India)
    First of all, this thread treats two very different topics - "apnaa apnaa" and "aa chuke", which is kind of confusing. However, there have already been posts here on both topics, and I cannot split the thread. It would be nice if a moderator could kindly do that.


    What you are looking at in "aa chuke" and "thak chuke", is "compound verbs" - probably the weirdest part of the grammar of many (most?) modern Indian languages. I am not sure if you are familiar with the concept; if not, you definitely need to get familiar, as they are extremely common.

    In Hindi-Urdu the structure is "verb-root-A finite-verb-B" (e.g. thak chuke; A=thak, B=chuk-e), where the main semantics is provided by A and tense/aspect by the grammatical tense/aspect marked on B. But B (the vector verb) also provides very fine nuance of aspect and/or the speaker's attitude towards the statement. A (the "content" verb, let's say) can be pretty much any verb, but B (the "vector" verb) comes from a small closed set (e.g. chuk-, le-, de-, Daal-, baiTh-, jaa-, paR-, etc.), with the approximate nuances expressed as follows:
    1. chuk- => finality of action, a sense of "already" (thak chuke = they have already become tired)
    *2. le- => deliberate action affecting the agent (khaa le! = Eat up (for your own enjoyment)!)
    *3. de- => deliberate action affecting somebody/something other than the agent (us-ne shikaayat kar dii = He/She complained (and that affects us/you, etc.))
    (*)4. Daal- => involuntary or unwanted action (khaa Daalaa = He ate up (unintentionally) or (the speaker is unhappy that) he ate up.)
    5. baiTh- => sudden action without deliberation (khaa baiThaa = He ate (suddenly without thinking about it - it may be bad for him))
    6. jaa- => probably many different nuances, but one of them is probably - without much difficulty (so gayaa = He fell asleep) ... to be frank I cannot quite pin down the nuance of this vector verb.
    7. paR- => Again another rather difficult one to explain the nuance of. But I think, at least sometimes, it expresses a certain amount of difficulty or effort behind the action (mashiin chal paRI = The machine worked (at last)).

    The *-ed vector verbs (le, de) take ergative alignment in the perfect tenses, even if the the "content" verb is intransitive:
    - bachche ne has diyaa = The baby smiled (and that affects the speaker or someone around - presumably, they are happy about it)
    - us ne thoRaa saa so liyaa = He has slept a bit (and that affected him - presumably he is feeling fresh now)

    The other vector verbs take nominative-accusative alignment in the perfect tenses, even if the content verb is transitive:
    - wo laRkaa kaafii saarii chiTThiyaaN likh chukaa hai = That boy has (already) written quite a few letters.
    - maiN ek ghalatii kar baiThaa = I (=masc.) have made a mistake (because I was not careful).


    I am not totally sure, but I think Daal- can take both alignments:
    puliis ne us ko maar Daalaa = puliis us ko maar Daalii = Police have killed him/her (and the speaker is unhappy about that)

    Can mother tongue speakers please confirm?

    EDIT: Added the words in blue.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Sorry, I don't fall in this category but I can say that your second example is out of "alignment".
  11. Dib Senior Member

    Bengali (India)
    Thanks a lot for the correction. I have some follow-up questions, and then I'll edit my original post to reflect this.

    1. Can Daal- be used with intransitive content verbs? What alignment does it take in perfect tense in that case? I mean, can you say something like:
    aaxir kar, wo/us-ne DaakTar (doctor) ban hii Daalaa = Eventually he did become a doctor (though nobody expected/wanted it).
    If yes, then is the wo version correct, or the us-ne version?

    2. Can paR- be used with transitive content verbs? I could not think of a context where that sounds right. So, I have a feeling that paR- is probably restricted to intransitive content verbs. It may, however, be that I am facing an interpolation of the corresponding restriction in Bengali. So, I am not sure.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  12. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Moderator note: This thread is multi-topic and needs to be split! In the meantime I have to temporarily close it before it becomes too unwieldy to handle!
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