Urdu: عمری

Gop

Senior Member
Tamil
Hello,
Could you please help me with the meaning of عمری in the following sentence (from the book چاکیوارا میں وصال by Muhammad Khalid Akhtar). This word does not figure in Platts, Kitabistan, or Feroz ul lughat:

تمہیں یاد ہوگا کہ اس فینٹسی کے لکھے جانے کے بعد اس کے مسودہ کو پڈھنے والے تم پہلے شخص تھے اور

تم نے اس کی زبان اور املا کو درست کرنے کی حتی المقدور کوشش کی تھی

)افسوس، ایک ناممکن کام!(

یہ نو دس سال پہلے کی بات ہے جب ہم میں میا نہ عمری کی سنجیدگی اورشائستگی نہیں آئی تھی اور ہم جو

انسان کی غیر ذمہ داری کے ساتھ بہت سی متبرک چیزوں پر ہنس سکتے تھے۔

(I am unable to properly format parentheses in Urdu text, the exclamatory mark should be at the end of the parenthetical phrase.)
Thanks.
 
  • Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    میانہ عُمری

    میانہ = middle

    عُمر = age

    عُمری =

    Well you know the word Pakistan پاکستان

    So, what does پاکستانی mean?

    Apply the same logic to عُمری
     
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    • Agree
    Reactions: Dib

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    میانہ عُمری

    میانہ = middle

    عُمر = age

    عُمری =

    Well you know the word Pakistan پاکستان

    So, what does پاکستانی mean?

    Apply the same logic to عُمری
    Pardon my intrusion but I'm afraid I can't find any parallel between پاکستانی and میانہ عمری here in the context as is.
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    To clarify what @marrish saahib might have meant ---

    The -ii suffix is used:

    (a) to turn nouns into adjectives (paakistaan -> paakistaanii),
    (b) to turn adjectives into abstract nouns (garm -> garmii), and
    (c) to turn nouns into abstract nouns (zamiindaar -> zamiindaarii).

    Based on some Googling, it appears that miyaanah 3umr is used like a noun (I see things like "miyaanah 3umr kii 3aurateN"). The phrase miyaanah 3umrii also appears to also be used as a noun in the OP ("miyaanah 3umrii kii sanjiidgii"), so it seems this is an example of the suffix -ii being used in style (c), turning nouns into nouns. In other words, "miyaanah 3umr" is "middle age" and "miyaanah 3umrii" is something like "the state of being middle-aged" in this context.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    To clarify what @marrish saahib might have meant ---

    The -ii suffix is used:

    (a) to turn nouns into adjectives (paakistaan -> paakistaanii),
    (b) to turn adjectives into abstract nouns (garm -> garmii), and
    (c) to turn nouns into abstract nouns (zamiindaar -> zamiindaarii).

    Based on some Googling, it appears that miyaanah 3umr is used like a noun (I see things like "miyaanah 3umr kii 3aurateN"). The phrase miyaanah 3umrii also appears to also be used as a noun in the OP ("miyaanah 3umrii kii sanjiidgii"), so it seems this is an example of the suffix -ii being used in style (c), turning nouns into nouns. In other words, "miyaanah 3umr" is "middle age" and "miyaanah 3umrii" is something like "the state of being middle-aged" in this context.
    Yes, thank you for this. I do believe I did not delve deep enough when composing my response. Looking into this a bit further, I do feel as if the ی in عُمری is redundent just as it is in خوشخبری.

    میانہ عمر like میانہ قد can be construed as a صفت (adjective) too.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    To clarify what @marrish saahib might have meant ---
    Thank you, you've done me a favour :) – but it wasn't that unclear, was it?

    Simplified:
    paakistaan (noun) -> paakistaanii (adjective)
    miyaanah-3umr (noun) -> miyaanah-3umrii (noun)
    BTW I think - just a presupposition that there are more than only three usages of -ii.
    In other words, "miyaanah 3umr" is "middle age" and "miyaanah 3umrii" is something like "the state of being middle-aged" in this context.
    Yes, it's correct, it's what I meant.
    میانہ عمر like میانہ قد can be construed as a صفت (adjective) too.
    Exactly.
    So, to be precise, it should be rather
    paakistaan (noun) -> paakistaanii (adjective/noun)
    miyaanah-3umr (compound adjective 'middle-aged'/adjective+noun 'middle age') -> miyaanah-3umrii (noun of quality) = 'middle-agedness=being of middle age.'

    Now I can however see that 'miyaanah-3umrii' is not derived from the noun 3umr + adjective miyaanah but rather from [miyaanah~3umr]+ii, which points toward miyaanah-3umrii coming only from the adjective and this excludes thus the earlier possibility of 'miyaanah 3umr' as a qualified noun.
     
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    Gop

    Senior Member
    Tamil
    میانہ عُمری

    میانہ = middle

    عُمر = age

    عُمری =

    Well you know the word Pakistan پاکستان

    So, what does پاکستانی means?

    Apply the same logic to عُمری
    “Of middle age”!
    I must confess I had read میا نہ as two separate words, stupid though it is! And hence missed the natural reasoning about عمری.
    Thank you very much, Qureshpor SaaHib. :)
    (I had written this in response to Qureshpor SaaHib’s post #2, but just failed to press the ‘post reply’ button.)
    Thanks to all for a very enlightening discussion.)
     
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    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    میانہ عمر like میانہ قد can be construed as a صفت (adjective) too.

    Thanks, that's good to know! I was actually expecting it to be an adjective (in analogy with phrases like kam 3umr) and was slightly surprised when I googled "میانہ عمر" and mostly saw hits that seemed to use it as a noun.

    Thank you, you've done me a favour :) – but it wasn't that unclear, was it?

    Not unclear! Just very brief :) I just figured it might be useful for someone out there at some point to expand on what you were saying.

    BTW I think - just a presupposition that there are more than only three usages of -ii.

    Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more! I tried to think of examples where -ii is attached to attach it to a verb of some sort, and things like paRhaaii-likhaaii came to mind, but the suffix there is -aaii rather than -ii. But probably there are others where the suffix is actually -ii.

    paakistaan (noun) -> paakistaanii (adjective/noun)

    Yes, I thought about the fact that paakistaanii is also a noun, but then thought maybe I could think of this a substantive usage of an adjective. But maybe you're right that it's better to think of it as a noun on its own. Anyway!

    Now I can however see that 'miyaanah-3umrii' is not derived from the noun 3umr + adjective miyaanah but rather from [miyaanah~3umr]+ii, which points toward miyaanah-3umrii coming only from the adjective and this excludes thus the earlier possibility of 'miyaanah 3umr' as a qualified noun.

    You're certainly right that parsing it as [miyaanah 3umr]-ii makes more sense than something like miyaanah [3umr-ii]! You may also be right that [miyaanah 3umr] here is the adjective rather than the noun. In the examples of the suffix -ii of type (c) that I can think of (zamiindaarii, mazduurii, ...), the noun X that that I begin with (zamiindaar, mazduur, ...) refers to a class of people and the suffixed noun is, vaguely speaking, "the condition of being an X." But the noun miyaanah 3umr isn't a class of people, so it doesn't quite seem to fit.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Just adding a little more to the discussion.

    miyaanah-3umr can be thought of as 3umr-i-miyaanah reversed but with the izaafat dropped. I believe this is called "fakk-i-izaafat in Urdu linguistic terminology.

    dil-i-sang > sang-dil (stone-hearted/callous)

    tan-i-fiil > fiil-tan (elepant bodied/ massive)

    These kinds of attributive compounds can be compared to the Sanskrit Bahuvriihi compounds.

    naamah-i-pand (Book of Council) > pand-naamah

    gaah-i-shab (Time of night) > shab-gaah (Nighttide)

    These determinative compounds are the Tatpurusha type compounds of Sanskrit. It's been a long time since I was last reading about Bahuvriihi and Tatpurusha compounds!:)

    I suspect then "miyaanah-3umr" would fall under the Bahuvriihi category (?).
     
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