Urdu: قسم لينا

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by urdustan, Jun 28, 2013.

  1. urdustan Member

    Urdu & English

    Can qasam lenaa be used in the same way as qasam khaanaa or does it only mean to take/obtain an oath (from someone)?


    3adālat meN Omar se qasam lenaa

    Khudaa kii qasam lenaa

    Are both sentences correct or does khaanaa have to be substituted in the second sentence?

  2. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu

    qasam lenaa means "to make someone swear/to require someone take an oath." It does not mean the same as qasam khaanaa, just the opposite, but qasam khilaanaa may be equalled in meaning with qasam lenaa.

    The examples should be seen to keeping this in mind.

    عدالت میں عمر سے قسم لینا ہو گا۔
    3adaalat meN 3umar se qasam lenaa (ho gaa)
    : {It will be needed) to administer an oath to Omar in the court.

    xudaa kii qasam lenaa خدا کی قسم لینا does not sound right. It should be only and exclusively xudaa kii qasam khaanaa, i.e. to swear by God. As you can see the syntax is also not right in the second case because as a verb, qasam lenaa is governed by the postposition se, unlike qasam khaanaa which goes with kii, like kisii kii qasam khaanaa=to swear by something/someone.

    So your proposition to substitute khaanaa in the second sentence is absolutely right.
  3. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    ^ I agree with you marrish SaaHib, we wouldn't say xudaa kii qasam lenaa خدا کی قسم لینا !! BTW, qasam is treated as feminine in our speech - also seen in a number of Urdu lexicons, but in my 20th Urdu dictionary printed in Delhi it is treated as masculine. So from our point of view the sentence would be: 3adaalat meN 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gii
  4. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you for confirmation, sometimes it feels odd if there is only one answer without any follow-up. qasam for us is also feminine, plural qasameN but I tend to use the masculine [as default] verb in such constructions. I don't know whether this is correct, I think so, but it is certainly not very common. You are of course perfectly right to point it out and my way of saying it should not be emulated, especially by people who learn Urdu! I remember it was discussed somewhere and I will try to look for that thread to link it here.

    Link: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2327406, the post where CM Naim is quoted, see third option.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2013
  5. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Ι might be misunderstanding you marrish SaaHib but it appears to me that Faylasoof SaaHib is not talking about the main verb (in this case "lenaa" or "lenii" for a feminine subject) but the auxiliary verb, "ho jaanaa" in the quoted sentence. Because "qasam" is feminine, we must use "ho gii" and NOT "ho gaa".
  6. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    We are on the same wave length, all three of us. For me there is no question of putting lenaa to lenii and I know Faylasoof SaaHib drew my attention to "ho gaa".

    Please consider the following, leaving lenii or lenaa aside, as there is no contention about it (emphasis mine):

    Following this pattern, using plural qasameN so that we get full compatibility, we can get:

    1) (mujhe, jaj ko...) 3umar se qasameN lenii haiN --- full agreement in gender and number of all parts of the verb.
    2) 3umar se qasameN lenaa haiN --- partial agreement in gender and number, the infinitive remaining default masculine sg.
    3) 3umar se qasameN lenaa hai --- no agreement of the noun with the verb, the whole of the verb being default masculine sg.

    Per analogy,

    1) 3umar se qasam lenii ho gii. (full agreement)
    2) 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gii. (partial agreement)
    3) 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa. (no agreement)

    As a side note, I don't quite understand why you said the auxiliary verb was 'ho jaanaa'?
  7. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    We might be going off topic but "hai" or "haiN" can not be termed as "masculine" for they do not display any gender. Whereas your "ho gaa" does and it is masculine when it should be feminine "ho gii" being linked to qasam.

    C.M. Naim, in his third example is disconnecting the verb from the noun "kitaabeN" and hence is using "hai" instead of "haiN!". To superimpose his sentence on what you are trying to say, we would get..

    3umar se qasameN lenaa ho gii....where, based on the second option we would have..

    3umar se qasameN lenaa hoN gii

    As far as my understanding goes, we can not deduce...

    3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa... from Naim's third example.
  8. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Normally, when we take the second example from Naim and change the tense from present to future, we will end up with:

    mujhe kitaabeN xariidnaa hoN gii. In this case you are right in transposing it to 3umar se qasameN lenaa hoN gii. Here the auxiliary verb is linked in agreement with kitaabeN and qasameN, while the infinitive remains in its default form, uninflected.

    With regard to the third example from Naim, you are also right to note that the verb is disconnected from kitaabeN (pl.) so we get hai (sg.) instead of haiN (pl). I can follow the argument that the gender is not semantically obvious from the auxiliary hai or haiN in Urdu but still what is certain is that there is no more agreement in number between the plural noun and conjugated verb form!

    Returning to C.M. Naim's third example, mujhe kitaabeN (f.pl) xariidnaa hai (default m. sg.)--->mujhe kuchh (m.sg.)xariidnaa hai (default m.sg)--->mujhe kitaab (f.sg.) xariidnaa hai (default m.sg.)--->mujhe qalam (m.sg.) xariidnaa hai (def. m.sg.).

    From this line of reasoning it is evident that the construction 'dative+inf.(default)+auxilliary verb' remains unchanged default m.sg., no matter what the object(s) (do kitaabeN, ek qalam, das lifaafe or ek dawaat) might be.

    Further on, if we change the tense of the auxiliary verb, we will get: qalam xariidnaa ho gaa and tiin qalam xariidnaa ho gaa. kitaab xariidnaa ho gaa and kitaabeN xariidnaa ho gaa. If we follow the possibility that is given to us by the amorphous nature of haiN or hai, that is the noun being disconnected from the auxiliary verb only with regard to number but not to gender, we would have to say *mujhe kitaabeN (f.pl) lenaa ho gii (f.sg.)*! And this would be a really interesting case.

    I hope I have been somewhat clearer this time.

    Addition: I've been able to find one example on the net: programming siikhne ke liye ibtidaa meN aap ko qasam lenaa ho gaa kih ... پروگرامنگ سیکھنے کے لیے ابتدا میں آپ کو قسم لینا ہوگا کہ . My commentary: 1) please note the wrong usage of qasam lenaa which is the topic of this thread! It is the influence of English idiom ''to take an oath''!!! 2) together with 1) it does not appear to be a reliable example to follow 3) the verb is masculine but it still does not prove my reasoning as F. SaaHib has mentioned the gender shift in one dictionary!
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2013
  9. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    There's also ḥalf lenā (mentioned in Platts), which could have led to qasam lenā in this context. Do you think both are examples of English influence? Maybe someone can verify the oldest usage of ḥalf lenā in Urdu. Which dictionary are the dates listed in?
  10. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Indeed, Half lenaa has similar meaning to qasam khaanaa but their usage is different. I will have to investigate the possibility of English influence on Half lenaa but it seems unlikely that Half lenaa has influenced people to confuse qasam khaanaa with qasam lenaa. After all, the standard and most current verb is Half uThaanaa, not Half lenaa. I promise to return to this tomorrow, it's very late now.
  11. Cilquiestsuens Senior Member

    By the way, since no one mentioned it, there is also qasam dena which is synonymous with qasam uThaanaa / khaanaa.
  12. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Although the topic of the thread is indeed qasam lenaa we can discuss other ways qasam is used in compound verbs in order to clarify / inform how the word gets used. I think it is OK.

    Bu to keep things simple (and try not to go off-topic):

    In most Urdu lexicons qasam is treated as feminine though I did find an exception so far (my post above).

    1) If we go with the feminine gender (the majority) then it has to be:
    3umar se qasam lenaa ho gii
    Just like: mujhe kitaab xariidnaa* / lenaa* ho gii.
    (But also this : mujhe kitaab xariidnii / lenii ho gii)

    2) If there are people treating it as a masculine noun, then:
    3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa <--- sounds odd to me as I fall in the first group!
    Just like: mujhe juutaa xariidnaa / lenaa ho gaa -- (juutaa [shoe] being masculine).

    But juutii [slipper] we treat as feminine, so the sentence becomes:
    mujhe juutii xariidnaa* / lenaa* ho gii
    (But also this : mujhe juutii xariidnii / lenii ho gii)

    * In our speech and found commonly elsewhere too. I don't want to go into the discussion of xariidnaa vs. xariidnii and lenaa vs. lenii because we have already done this in at least one other thread quite comprehensively.

    But the point is that if we treat qasam as feminine (most Urduphones I've come across seem to do so and most Urdu lexicons also indicate the same) then the sentence under discussion (3adaalat meN 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa) has to end in ho gii, just as for the kitaab example in (1) above, i.e. 3adaalat meN 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gii.

    Just for the sake of completeness, here is how qasam is used in compound verbs:
    قسم دينا qasam denaa = قسم لينا qasam lenaa = to administer an oath; put somebody under oath.
    قسم دلانا qasam dilaana = to make someone swear an oath.
    قسم كهانا qasam khaanaa = to swear; to take an oath.
    (... and there is also of course قسم توڑنا = qasam toRnaa = to commit perjury, perjure oneself ; to violate an oath).
  13. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Yes, we have Half lenaa listed in Platts but whether this and qasam lenaa are due to English influence would require digging deeper not just in Urdu usage but also in Arabic since in MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) I have seen أخذ الحلف axz-ul-Half = (lit.) oath-taking. Not sure about Classical Arabic though.

    In Urdu these are much more common usages of Half: خلف اٹھانا Half uThaanaa = to swear / to take an oath; حلف دینا Half dena = to administer an oath.

    حَلْف Half = oath = قسم qasam = سَو گَنْد suagand (discussed here). حَلْف Half came into written Urdu usage in 1880, قسم qasam in 1707 and سوگند suagand in 1564. This, quite reliable, online dictionary gives the dates but all Urdu usage and chronology ultimately rely on the 22 volume "urduu luGhat" (reported here) that was finally published in and around July 2010 citing the earliest references possible.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  14. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Are people using qasam uThaanaa? qasam khaanaa and Half uThaanaa is how we use them and how I see these being used by most.
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I would suggest that "qasam uThaanaa" is a direct translation from the Punjabi "qasam chukNRaa". In Punjabi, one of the contestants in a dispute might say to the other (i.e. in a school play ground!) "chukk qasam" which would translate to "uThaa qasam!"
  16. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Faylasoof SaaHib, you are right saying that the ultimate authority on Urdu usage is currently the voluminous Urdu Lughat, the fruit of labour of love of many decades. Unfortunately I don't have access to it. A certain dictionary which predates that of Platts recorded Half uThaanaa as we know it very well together with Half lenaa. For the oath administration the following are recorded: Half denaa, Half uThwaanaa. With regard to ''duly putting someone under oath" there is Hasb-e-zaabitah Half diyaa gayaa.

    With saugand we get the same set of verbs which we have already discussed above (welll, apart from uThaanaa!). There is also saugand se kahnaa.

    As we can see there is different set of verbs for qasam and different for Half. This is circumstantial evidence that they are not influenced by English phrases, whereas *qasam lenaa* for "to take an oath" appears to be, in particular because it is not found in lexicons with this meaning and as we know the influence of English has been growing.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2013
  17. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Do you remember which dictionary?
  18. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Yes I do know as I retyped the contents from it. It is one of Fallon's dictionaries which is not available online. The reference I gave was merely intended to discuss the issue of possible influences, which I believe has been convincingly presented in the above post.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  19. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Yes, I know about this! (Please see below).
    Now, I would not dispute the growing English influence but this may not be so easy to determine since, as I mention above, the Arabic أخذ الحلف axz-ul-Half is there (even axaza-l-Half might exist, i.e. use of the verb!) and we need to look into this.

    For saugand we have:

    سوگند دینا suagand dena = to administer an oath (= Persian سوگند دادن saugand daadan)
    سوگند كھانا suagand khaanaa = to swear / take an oath. ( = Persian سوگند یاد كردن \ خوردن suagand yaad kardan / xurdan)
    These Persian usages are where we got our qasam khaanaa etc. from

    There is also سوگند شكسنی suagand shikanii used in elevated Urdu for perjury.

    I haven't heard saugand se khaanaa. We would never use it either.
  20. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Yes, it is obvious that the use of particular verbs reflects those used in Persian. Faylasoof SaaHib, I have been unable to figure out with which verb حلف is/was used in Persian.
    I didn't say saugand se khaanaa سوگند سے کھانا! I said saugand se kahnaa سوگند سے کہنا!
  21. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Fallon does have the usages we are talking about (and more) but he gives the 'common' pronunciation (Halaf, except when used as maf3uul muTlaq, Halfan) instead of the 'educated' Half ! Over time the former spread enough to be included in reputable Urdu lexicons!

    A حلف hal'af; H. dharam, n. m. حلف he swore. Swearing by what is sacred; an oath. half'an, ba-halaf, adj. On one's oath. halfan tasdīq huī. Attested or deposed on oath; sworn. halaf uṭhānā, v. a. To make oath; to swear. halaf-darogī, n. f. Perjury; false-swearing. halaf denā yā uṭhvānā, v. a. To administer an oath. halaf se izhār denā, v. a. To depose on oath. halaf lenā, yā uṭhānā. Making oath; swearing. halaf-nāma, n. m. A declaration upon oath; a written solemn declaration by a person exempt by the Regulations from being sworn in the ordinary manner; an affidavit. hasb-i-zābitah halaf dīyā gayā. Sworn in due form.

    (Fallon's Hindustani dictionary (1879) does indeed predate Platts' (1884) by five years.)
  22. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Sorry, my mistake! But even this I don't remember hearing. Instead we say qasam de ke kahnaa.

    I think in Persian there is as preference for saugand / suugand rather than using Half ( لغت نامه دهخدا
    حلف . [ ح َ ] (ع مص ) سوگند خوردن . (منتهی الارب ) (اقرب الموارد) (دهار) (از ترجمان عادل ). حِلف . حَلِف . محلوف . محلوفة. محلوفاء همه مصادرند. (اقرب الموارد) (منتهی الارب ). حلف بفتح و سکون لام یا کسر آن به معنی سوگندی است که بدان پیمان بندند. سپس هر گونه سوگندرا یمین و حلف نامیدند. چنانچه در مضمرات ذکر کرده و با این وصف حلف و یمین دو لفظ مرادف یکدیگر باشند.چنانچه در جامعالرموز هم بهمین نحو بیان کرده . در جامعالرموز در فصل سوگند گفته است : سوگند موقت ، سوگندیست که وقت و تعیین آن در آن تصریح شده باشد. و سوگند جاودانی ، آن است که همیشگی آن در آن تصریح شده . و سوگند مطلق نامعلوم ، آن است که وقت و همیشگی و یا غیر آن در آن قید نشده باشد. (کشاف اصطلاحات الفنون ).

    BTW, I found that Hayyim has Halaf too as an alternative:
    حلف (halaf: helf) Noun A An oath. Syn. قسم || A sworn agreement; a covenant. [(ahlaf) احلاف = Plural].

    But also Half:
    حلف (half) Noun A Swearing. A oath.
  23. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Perhaps the most interesting reference as to the usage of verbs with Half (Halaf) will be the entry from my favourite Farhang-e-Aasafiyyah (later than Platts but doesn't matter):

    حَلَف اُٹھانا: قسم کھانا۔ قرآن اُٹھانا۔ مذہبی کتاب کی قسم کھانا۔ گنگا جلی اُٹھانا
    Halaf uThaanaa: qasam khaanaa - qur'aan uThaanaa - mazhabii kitaab kii qasam khaanaa - gaNgaa-jalii uThaanaa.

    Besides, one of the meanings of Half (in this lexicon there is the more current version Halaf) is the Koran. As is mentioned in one of my above posts, the usage of Halaf and qasam is not identical whence we can see that the verbs which accompany them are different.

    EDIT: I was busy typing my post and I had not noticed yours! Yes, I went through Dehkhoda and others but I haven't found a verb which would accompany Half/Halaf.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  24. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    I don't know if Pashto usage has any basis or implications for Urdu, but it's worth mentioning that Pashto has qasam xwarral and qasam aaxistal as synonyms meaning "to swear an oath," with xwarral = khaanaa and aaxistal = lenaa. At the very least, it shows languages in proximity to Urdu use the equivalent of qasam lenaa, though I'm not sure how common qasam aaxistal is compared to qasam xwarral. Considering these entries are from the year 1867, I doubt Pashto would've been influenced by English at this early date.

    Wouldn't saugand yaad kardan mean "to remember an oath"?

    I have seen Half kardan in Persian. Using karnaa as a verb with "oath" in Urdu would sound odd to me, though.
  25. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Could you give some reference? You are right, karnaa is no good.
    saugand yaad kardan would mean ''to swear'', verbatim ''to mention an oath''. It is idiomatic for older language.
  26. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    I've seen it in some Persian dictionaries, for example p. 130 here. However, I haven't seen the combination Half kardan when I google for articles in Persian.
  27. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Yes, I have seen it under ''swear''. This dictionary, I would not spend too much time to assess it, presents major mistakes as to the pronunciation/romanization.

    Now that I remember, in Urdu for a ceremony we use the term Half-bardaarii حلف برداری which would originate from Half bar-daashtan.

    Two possibilities: bardaarii is used for the original uThaanaa or uThaanaa is used for original bardaashtan!
  28. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    As I mentioned above, the way we use the various terms being discussed here can all be traced back to Persian usage, hence it is more likely that Half uTHaanaa is from Half bardaashtan. Much like the suspected route: suagand / suugand xurdan --> qasam khaanaa.

    It would be worth checking older literature for this.
  29. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I had a discussion yesterday with a Persian speaking friend who said that Half was not widely used and I quote: "Anyway, حلف برداری (or any "raising" for oath) is not used in Persian as far as I know."
  30. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Steingass lists the expression saugand bar-aawardan. One of the meanings of bar-aawardan is "to raise up." Steingass is an Indo-Persian dictionary, though, so I'm not sure if that is/was a genuine Persian expression or represents Indic influence.

    EDIT: Hayyim also lists sowgand bar-aavardan
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  31. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Confirms what I said earlier. I didn't imply this when I said "Half uTHaanaa is from Half bardaashtan". (below)

    We need to look at this usage (Half bardaashtan) in Indo-Pak Persian which means digging some of our very own and very old literature!
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  32. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I too noticed this and Hayyim can't be accused of an Indo-Pak Persian bias! Even Steingass shouldn't be ignored because he tried to cater to the widest possible readership, both subcontinental and Iranian.
  33. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Some people see Indo-Persian in somewhat negative light, almost as if the people of India have created a kind of Persian that is faulty and not as good as the "original" article. However they forget that Persian was brought to India by people who were mother-tongue speakers of the language.

    One of the earliest Sufi prose writings is kashfu_lmaHjuub written by Ali Hajveri aka daataa ganj baxsh. He was born in Ghazna around 990 and died in Lahore. The earliest poetry is by Mas'ud Sa'd Salman who was born in Lahore in 1046. His parents had come from Hamadan. Amir Khusrau (1253-1325), Mirza Abdul Qadir Bedil (1642-1720) born in Kabul and Mirza Assadullah Khan Ghalib (1779-1869), all towering figures in Persian poetry were of Persian speaking Turkic ancestry.

    During the Safavid Rule, a large number of Persian poets and other literati migrated to Mughal India. It is interesting to note that the most comprehensive Persian dictionary compiler (Dehkhoda-1931) quotes from the earliest Indo-Persian dictionaries, for example..

    Farhang-i-Jahangiri (1608) whose author had moved from Shiraz

    Burhan-i-Qati' (1651). It's author was a Tabrezi.

    So, apart from minor differences, Indo-Persian is essentially the same as the Persian of the Classical Persian writers, both poets and prose writers.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  34. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I do not wish to go off-topic here but would just add that I very much agree with you QP SaaHib since the subcontinent has produced some of the finest Persian literature - one only has to read the Persian poetry of Ghaalib-e-dehlavii, iqbaal laahaurii or abul faiDh faiDhii (فیضی ) and others, not forgetting the numerous South Asian Persian prose writers, including Mir (miir taqii miir whose Zikr-e-miir is in Persian) to see this. However, we did eventually evolve a Persian idiom typical to the Indo-Pak region. Can't put a date on it but I have a large collection of these which is indeed good Persian, but idioms unknown in Iran, Afghanistan & Tajikistan. Perhaps I should search for Half bardaashtan in this and other collections.
  35. urdustan Member

    Urdu & English
    SaaHib, what's the difference between qasam denaa & qasam dilaanaa? The definitions sound the same. I've mostly heard qasam khilaanaa.
  36. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    The use of uṭhānā in swearing could have resulted from the actual act of lifting a sacred object. See below.

    H اٿهانا उठाना uṭhānā [caus. S. उद्+स्था], v.t. To lift, take up, raise, raise up, elevate, hoist; to take up (anything held sacred) for the purpose of swearing by it, to swear by;[...]
  37. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Yes, it is the most plausible reasoning and I have already posted this before which is even more convincing (English translation added):
  38. gagun Senior Member

    Telugu-TS, Deccani-TS
    saugnad dilana/dena/khilana these three seem to be a single meaning as qasam lena.
    did anybody hear about qasam rakhna?
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
  39. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    We don't use 'qasam rakhnaa' and I haven't heard it being used in the circles I move in.
  40. urdustan Member

    Urdu & English
    Do you know what the difference is between qasam dena & qasam dilaanaa?
  41. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Regarding qasam lenaa ho gaa or ho gii:
    In another thread these sentences were quoted from Allama Nazm Tabatabai of Lakhnau (if you follow the link, there will be more information available).

    Transliteration: haaN, hinduu agar yih koshish kareN kih bhaakaa meN jitne faarsii asmaa2 mil ga'e haiN un ko is zabaan se nikaal DaaleN to in ko na'ii zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa.

    un logoN kaa shaa3ir honaa to kujaa unheN achchhii tarH baat karnaa bhii nahiiN aataa.

    zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa is exactly the same way of saying things like qasam lenaa ho gaa.
    Both zabaan and qasam are singular feminine nouns. Both bananaa and lenaa are infinitives in their singular masculine form. qasam lenaa ho gaa is almost the same as qasam lenaa paRe gaa and both zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa and qasam lenaa ho gaa display the default masculine singular verb.
  42. urdustan Member

    Urdu & English
    Shukriyah for the examples, marrish SaaHib! qasam lenaa ho gaa is interesting.
  43. urdustan Member

    Urdu & English
    Does anyone know the answer to my question below?

  44. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    This is what the dictionary has to say about it:

    qasam dilānā (-ko), To administer an oath (to), to make (one) swear:qasam denā (-ko), To administer an oath (to); to adjure; to conjure (by, -se); to place or put under an oath of prohibition, to place or put under a ban:

    qasam denaa has already been described in the previous posts; qasam dilaanaa basically means the same but it is less frequently used and it is a sort of, I would say, putting an obligation on someone, causing one to be obliged to do or not to do something.
  45. urdustan Member

    Urdu & English
    Thank you marrish SaaHib! Would you say qasam khilaanaa is also the same thing? I think that's what I most commonly hear.
  46. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    marrish SaaHib, I will have to accept a delayed reaction! I agree with you wholeheartedly that the sentence...

    3adaalat meN jaj ko 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa maps exactly with C.M. Naim's third example. Let me repeat those examples, adding past and future element to them.

    1) mujhe kuchh kitaabeN xariidnii haiN/thiiN/hoN gii (This form is what is the norm in Dehlavii Urdu and Hindi)

    2) mujhe kuchh kitaabeN xariidnaa haiN/thiiN/hoN gii (This form is the one our Faylasoof SaaHib adheres to....and I must confess that if I was n't using form 1) based on my Punjabi instincts, I would be most comfortable with form 2)

    3) mujhe kuchh kitaabeN xariidnaa hai/thaa/ho gaa.

    To make things easy, let us change the plural noun to the singular.

    1) mujhe ek kitaab xariidnii hai/thii/ho gii

    2) mujhe ek kitaab xariidnaa hai/thii/ho gii

    3) mujhe ek kitaab xariidnaa hai/thaa/ho gaa

    This is equivalent to

    3adaalat meN jaj ko 3umar se qasam lenaa ho gaa

    It is this very pattern that Allamah Ali Haider Nazm Tabatabai (hailing from Lucknow) is employing when he says in "maqaalaat-i-Tabatabai"...

    in ko na'ii zabaan banaanaa paRe gaa and

    unheN achchhii tarH baat karnaa bhii nahiiN aataa

    It is obvious from this pattern that it matters not whether we have xat likhnaa, kabaab khaanaa or chiTThii likhnaa and roTii khaanaa, the main verb is taken as a masculine noun and it finds concord with the secondary verb in the masculine format.
  47. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ایک بھوکا شخص قاضی کے پہاں گیا۔ ۔کہنے لگا میں بھوکا ہوں، مجھے کچھ دو تو میں کھاؤں۔ قاضی نے کہا یہ قاضی کا گھر ہے۔ قسم کھا اور چلا جا
  48. mundiya Senior Member

    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    Quresh jii, can you transliterate what you wrote please?

    On Urdu news mostly "Halaf" is used and not "qasam".

    Ex: "Vaziir-e-3azam ne Xudaa kaa Halaf uThaayaa thaa".
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
  49. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Of course! The pleasure will be all mine.

    ایک بھوکا شخص قاضی کے پہاں گیا۔ ۔کہنے لگا میں بھوکا ہوں، مجھے کچھ دو تو میں کھاؤں۔ قاضی نے کہا یہ قاضی کا گھر ہے۔ قسم کھا اور چلا جا

    ek bhuukaa shaxs qaazii ke yahaaN gayaa. kahne lagaa maiN bhuukaa huuN, mujhe kuchh do to maiN khaa'uuN. qaazii ne kahaa yih qaazii kaa ghar hai. qasam khaa aur chalaa jaa!

    mundiyaa jii, Halaf is not used because one has "Halaf uThaanaa" whereas it works with "qasam khaanaa" because he is after something to eat. I hope this makes sense.
  50. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    unheN laakh laakh Half uThaane deN vuh to magar apnii qasamoN par aur vuh jis bhii kii kyoN na hoN utarne kaa soch hii nahiiN rahe hote!

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