Urdu and Hindi: declension of persoarabic words ending in 3ain

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Friends,
I am sorry to keep coming back to this subject. But, from previous threads

Urdu, Hindi: ज़िला, ضلع declension
Urdu: inflection of nouns ending in he or ain?

I came to form two different ideas in my mind, which are mutually exclusive.

Idea #1 is that words ending in -3 are inflected as any other word ending in a consonant. For example, mauqa3 = "chance"

	sing.	plur.		sing.	plur.		sing.	plur.
direct	مَوقَع	مَوقَع		मौक़ा	मौक़ा		mauqa3	mauqa3
oblique	مَوقَع	مَوقَعوں		मौक़ा	मौक़ों		mauqa3	mauqoN
vocative	مَوقَع	مَوقَعو		मौक़ा	मौक़ो		mauqa3	mauqo

Moreover, my understanding is that even Hindi speakers unfamiliar with the Urdu script have a certain awareness of these words, and tend to treat their declension as described above.

Idea #2 is that these words are completely "Indicized" and they are declined as any other word phonetically ending in -aa, (although the -3 is orthographically retained in Urdu). For example, zila3 = "district"

	sing.	plur.		sing.	plur.		sing.	plur.
direct	ضلع	ضلعے		ज़िला	ज़िले		zila3	zil3e
oblique	ضلعے	شمعوں		ज़िले	ज़िलों		zil3e	zil3oN
vocative	ضلعے	شمعو		ज़िले	ज़िलो		zil3e	zil3o

(For simplicity, I am focusing on masculine words, and I am leaving aside the subject of Arabic plurals).

So, my question is: which one of the 2 "patterns"/ideas is the correct one?
It depends on the word?
Are some words more prone to be Indicized, while others have "hardened" on the Persoarabic pattern?

Additionally: Does this differ between Hindi and Urdu? Am I right to assume that Hindi speakers retain a vague notion of the consonant-ending of these words, even if not helped by the orthography?

Thanks in advance for any answer or comment.

 

[littlepond]

Your no. 1 would be "mauke" (or "mauqe" for those who can pronounce it) in Hindi in oblique and vocative cases. So I don't see any discrepancy when it comes to Hindi.

 

[aevynn]

The oblique form of declining nouns/adjectives of Perso-Arabic origin which are not spelled with a terminal alif but whose common "Indicized" pronounciation ends in /aː/, have somewhat non-standardized spelling in Urdu: it can be spelled identically to the direct form, or it can be spelled with terminal baRii ye -- but in either case, the word would typically still be pronounced with a terminal /eː/ phoneme.

For example, the singular oblique of موقع can be spelled either موقع or موقعے but will typically be pronounced /mɔːqeː/ (or /mɔːkeː/) no matter which of these spellings is used. If you search for "موقع پر" and "موقعے پر," for example, you'll get many hits for both. Similarly for the singular oblique of ضلع -- one will find both "ضلع میں" and "ضلعے میں," and again, it would typically be pronounced /zɪleː/ no matter which spelling is used.

Incidentally, you see this behavior sometimes with words whose direct case is spelled with a terminal gol he as well, though this is less frequent. For example, you'd usually see "راستے میں" but I have occasionally encountered things like "راستہ میں," in which case you just have to remember to read it out loud as /raːsteː/.

 

[Qureshpor]

The oblique form of declining nouns/adjectives of Perso-Arabic origin which are not spelled with a terminal alif but whose common "Indicized" pronounciation ends in /aː/, have somewhat non-standardized spelling in Urdu: it can be spelled identically to the direct form, or it can be spelled with terminal baRii ye -- but in either case, the word would typically still be pronounced with a terminal /eː/ phoneme.

For example, the singular oblique of موقع can be spelled either موقع or موقعے but will typically be pronounced /mɔːqeː/ (or /mɔːkeː/) no matter which of these spellings is used. If you search for "موقع پر" and "موقعے پر," for example, you'll get many hits for both. Similarly for the singular oblique of ضلع -- one will find both "ضلع میں" and "ضلعے میں," and again, it would typically be pronounced /zɪleː/ no matter which spelling is used.

کا استعمال قابلِ تحسین ہے کیونکہ گفتار و تحریر، ہر دو میں "موقع پر" بھی مستعمل ہے۔ "common" اور"typically" آپ کا

پروفیسر شمس الرّحمٰن فاروقی مرحوم فرماتے ہیں۔

مجمع

یہ اُن چند لفظوں میں سے ہے جن کے تلفُّظ میں حرف عین غائب ہو جاتا ہے اگر وہ حالت جمع میں ہوں یا حرفِ جار کے تحت ہوں۔ یعنی "جمع" کی جمع "جمعوں" کا تلفظ بر وزنِ فع لن ہے لیکن "مجمعوں/مجعمے" کے تلفظ میں عین غائب ہو جاتا ہے اور اِن لفظوں کو "مجمے/مجموں" بر وزنِ فع لن بولتے ہیں ۔ جو لوگ بہت اِحتیاط کرتے ہیں وہ "مجمعوں /مجمعے" کو شعر میں اِس طرح باندھتے ہیں کہ عین پوری طرح ملحوظ ہو۔ مثلاً خواجہ میر درد

آئے تھے اِس مجمعے میں قصد کر کے دور سے
ہم تماشے کے لئے آپ ہی تماشا ہو گئے

یہاں "مجمعے" بر وزن اچھّا نہیں لگتا اگرچہ قاعدے کے اِعتِبار سےصحیح ہے۔ اگر کوئی "مجمعے/مجمعوں" کو بر وزنِ فع لن باندھے تو مجھے اِعتِراض نہ ہو گا۔ "موقع" بھی "مجمع" کی قسم کا لفظ ہے۔ اِس کی جمع "موقعوں" میں عین ظاہر نہیں کیا جاتا۔
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یہاں ایک بات واضح ہے کہ میر درد فیلاسوف صاحب کی بات کی تائید کرتے نظر آتے ہیں کہ کم از کم کچھ اردو والے ایسے الفاظ میں حرفِ عین کا تلَفُّظ کرتے ہیں۔​

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[Qureshpor]

For example, the singular oblique of موقع can be spelled either موقع or موقعے but will typically be pronounced /mɔːqeː/ (or /mɔːkeː/) no matter which of these spellings is used. If you search for "موقع پر" and "موقعے پر," for example, you'll get many hits for both. Similarly for the singular oblique of ضلع -- one will find both "ضلع میں" and "ضلعے میں," and again, it would typically be pronounced /zɪleː/ no matter which spelling is used.

If you listen to a short piece from Pandit Jawaharlal* Nehru's speech (Urdu) where the text is given, what you are saying above is given visual and audio proof. Just type RAIS SIDDIQUI on DD URDU on Youtube. it's 2 minute 46 second video. (Note his pronunciation of the letter qaaf)

*(Although his name is written as "Jawahar...", the plural of "jauhar" is "javaahir". I don't know if it was pronounced by him and his family and friends as Jawaahar or Jawaahir).

 

[RustyHindi]

*(Although his name is written as "Jawahar...", the plural of "jauhar" is "javaahir". I don't know if it was pronounced by him and his family and friends as Jawaahar or Jawaahir).

Hi, out of curiosity, is there any difference between 'javaahir' and 'javaahraat (जवाहरात)'? I have only ever heard the latter, usually paired with 'heere (हीरे-जवाहरात)'.

 

[Qureshpor]

Hi, out of curiosity, is there any difference between 'javaahir' and 'javaahraat (जवाहरात)'? I have only ever heard the latter, usually paired with 'heere (हीरे-जवाहरात)'.

Theoratically speaking "javaahir" is the plural of "jauhar" and "javaahiraat" (often pronounced as "javaaharaat") is the plural of the already plural "javaahir", also known as "plural of plural" (jam3-ul-jam3). javaahir is perhaps less common than javaahiraat. I hope this answers your query.