Urdu: first sentence of "Don Quixote'

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Friends,

I am trying to translate the first sentence of "Don Quixote", probably the most recognized sentence in the Spanish language.
Here is the original in Spanish:

"En un lugar de La Mancha, de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme, no ha mucho tiempo que vivía un hidalgo de los de lanza en astillero, adarga antigua, rocín flaco, y galgo corredor." ...

And here is an acceptable translation into English:

"In a village of La Mancha whose name I don't care to remember, lived not long ago one of those gentlemen who kept a lance in the lance-rack, an old leather shield, a skinny workhorse and a fast greyhound."

Now, here is the translation I could come up with (with great help from Google translate):

لا منچا کے ایک گاؤں میں جس کے نام کو یاد کرنے کی مجھے پرواہ نہیں ہے، کچھ عرصہ پہلے ان حضرات میں سے ایک رہتا تھا جنہوں نے لانس ریک میں لانس، ایک پرانی چمڑے کی ڈھال، ایک پتلا ورک ہارس اور ایک تیز گرے ہاؤنڈ رکھا تھا۔

laa maNchaa ke ek gaaoN meN jis ke naam ko yaad karne kii mujhe parvaah nahiiN hai, kuchh 3arsaa pehle un hazraat meN se ek rɛhtaa thaa, jinhoN_ne laans-rek meN laans, ek puraanii chamRe kii Dhaal, ek patlaa vorkhAurs aur ek tez grehaauND rakhaa thaa.

I have a couple of stylistic questions which I would like to ask later, but, what bothers me most, is the English words for lance, workhorse and greyhound. Could someone please suggest me some more baroque, idiomatic terms for those words? There must be!

Thanks much for any help.

 

[Qureshpor]

This is how this Spanish sentence is translated elsewhere...

“Somewhere in la Mancha, in a place whose name I do not care to remember, a gentleman lived not long ago, one of those who has a lance and ancient shield on a shelf and keeps a skinny nag and a greyhound for racing.”​

پروا not پرواہ*

lance نیزہ

ancient shield قدیم ڈھال

skinny nag بوڑھا لاغر گھوڑا

greyhound تازی کتا

* جس کا نام میری بلا جانے

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Thanks!
So "jis_kaa naam merii bilaa jaane" means "whose name escapes me"? I think that captures the sense of the original.


Rewriting all:

لا منچا کے ایک گاؤں میں جس کا نام میری بلا جانے، کچھ عرصہ پہلے ان حضرات میں سے ایک رہتا تھا جنہوں نے نیزہ ریک میں نیزہ، ایک قدیم چمڑے کی ڈھال، بوڑھا لاغر گھوڑا اور ایک تازی کتا رکھا تھا۔

Also, can I get rid of the "ek ..., ek ..." for the things he kept, since it is not important that the gentelman kept one exactly of these things, but rather that he was "the kind of person who would keep a lance in the rack, a greyhound for coursing, etc."? Would leaving them indefinite be enough?

لا منچا کے ایک گاؤں میں جس کا نام میری بلا جانے، کچھ عرصہ پہلے ان حضرات میں سے ایک رہتا تھا جنہوں نے نیزہ ریک میں نیزہ، قدیم چمڑے کی ڈھال، بوڑھا لاغر گھوڑا اور تازی کتا رکھا تھا۔

(I suspect a rakhne_vaalaa would be appropriate somewhere to indicate that he is that kind of person, but I can't think how to insert it, given the structure of the sentence).

Does "نیزہ ریک" sound too English, or it is OK? The author probably meant something like this

but in the Lughat I can only find ہَینگَر 😊.

 

[Qureshpor]

The word is "balaa" not "bilaa"

کہیں لَمَنچا میں، ایک ایسی جگہ جس کا نام میری بلا جانے اور زیادہ عرصے کی بات نہیں وہاں ایک بھلا مانس رہائش پذیر تھا جو اُن لوگوں میں سے تھا جس کے پاس طاق پر نیزہ اور قدیم ڈھال اور دوڑ کے لئے ایک لاغر، محنت کش گھوڑا اور تازی کُتّا تھا۔

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

طاق

Thanks!

The word is "balaa" not "bilaa"

Oh, OK. Sorry to be slow, but, what is the idea behind "jis_kaa naam merii balaa jaane"?
That it "escapes" you?

There is a poem in Rekhta, by Fani Badayuni:

دنیا میری بلا جانے مہنگی ہے یا سستی ہے
موت ملے تو مفت نہ لوں ہستی کی کیا ہستی ہے

 

[Qureshpor]

Oh, OK. Sorry to be slow, but, what is the idea behind "jis_kaa naam merii balaa jaane"?
That it "escapes" you?

Urdu Lughat

It's an Urdu idiom to express carelessness and indifference as indicated in meanings 4 and 5 in Urdu LuGhat

دنیا (میری بلا جانے) مہنگی ہے یا سستی ہے
موت ملے تو مفت نہ لوں ہستی کی کیا ہستی ہے

The world (and I don't really care) whether it is expensive or of lesser worth
If death is offered, I wouldn't accept it for free; what then is this life's worth

P هستي hastī [hast, q.v.+ī = Zend i = S. इ], s.f. Being, existence; entity; world; life; — wealth, riches; — worth, merit.

یاد تھیں ہم کو بھی رنگارنگ بزم آرائیاں
لیکن اب نقش و نگارِ طاقِ نِسیاں ہو گئیں

مرزا اسدالله خان غالب


I too had memories of those jovial, colourful gatherings and parties
But now they have become decorations in the niche of forgetfullness

t̤āq : 'A recess (in a wall), a niche; a shelf'. (Platts p.750)

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

I have another question about the word Hazrat.

Don Quixote is an "hidalgo", which is means the lowest echelon of Spanish nobility. They were an impoverished class, whose only privileges were their purported lineage (hidalgo means "son of something"), to own some small property, and the fact of being tax exempted. I am not sure if the English word "gentleman" fully captures this idea.
He is also of course not a "knight", concept that was outdated and comical by that time.

But in any case, isn't Hazrat too much of an exalted word, or it can be used liberally to describe this lower/barely-nobility kind of people?

BTW, the full title of the novel (its first part at least) is "El ingenioso hidalgo Don Quijote de la Mancha". So, however this has been translated into Urdu, that is probably the word.

[EDIT] ; بھلا مانس is a "noble" in the sense of being good, beneficient, trustworthy, good-hearhed, or belonging to the nobility?

 

[Qureshpor]

Hazrat can be used for any male or female person* but usually it is to afford respect and dignity to the addressed. It is often used for prophets and other religious personalities, poets, scholars but I could, in polite speech, refer to you as "Hazrat". I don't believe it is used to imply "a gentleman, albeit in a set phrase خواتین و حضرات it is used in the plural for gentlemen.

*حضرت مریم علیہا السلام Hazrat Maryam 3alaihaa_ssalaam

*حضرت عیسیٰ علیہ السّلام Hazrat 3iisaa 3alaihi_ssalaam

I used بھلا مانس deliberately for "gentleman" even though there are several Urdu equivalents available for this. I felt it best suited the context.

bhalā mānus, bhalā mānas, s.m. Courteous, polite, or humane person; good, honest, or respectable man; gentleman; man of
position or rank, nobleman

What is your motive for translating a Spanish sentence into Urdu?

 

[elroy]

En un lugar de La Mancha

In a village of La Mancha

Somewhere in la Mancha, in a place

Is "village" really an appropriate translation? At least in Modern Spanish, I would say "place" and not "village," but maybe it was different in Cervantes' time?

I'm saying this because if it's "place," گاؤں will probably need to be changed.

 

[aevynn]

There are many directions a translation can be taken and I'm looking forward to seeing the possibilities that people suggest! I'm a fan of Qureshpor jii's use of merii balaa jaane, and the following comment from Platts may help the doubts expressed in #5:

A بلا balā (rt. بلو 'to try'), s.f. Trial, affliction, misfortune, calamity, evil, ill; a person or thing accounted a trial, affliction, &c.; evil genius, evil spirit, devil, fiend; a wonderful or extraordinary person or thing; an awful or terrible person or thing; an insignificant, or vile, person or thing; excessive, fearful or awful amount or quantity (of): ... (N.B. The word balā is often used most idiomatically in a manner difficult to be rendered in English; e.g. tumhārī balā-se, sc. kām hai, lit. 'It concerns your evil genius'; it is no concern of yours; what is it to do with you, never mind: — tū kyā balā hai, 'What awful thing are you?' Who cares for you? You are of no significance: — kis balā-kā kām, 'What fearful or trying work'; what a fearful amount of work: — āj to balā mirćeṅ ḍālīṅ hain, 'They have put in a fearful or tremendous quantity of chillies to-day.')​

I'm also a fan on Qureshpor jii's use of bhalaa maanus. It's not too exalted, and the following bolded portion from Platts seems apt for Don Quixote in particular:

​

H بهلا भला bhalā [S. भद्रकः], adj. (f. -ī), Good, excellent, virtuous, righteous; honest, respectable; benevolent, kind; healthy, well, sound; fortunate, prosperous; strange, wonderful, admirable; comical, droll; ... bhalā mānus, bhalā mānas, s.m. Courteous, polite, or humane person; good, honest, or respectable man; gentleman; man of position or rank, nobleman; (ironic.) silly fellow, simpleton, fool; ...​

رہاش پذیر

Minor typo: رہائش

Here's another potential direction you could take a translation.

(1)

The author probably meant something like this

I don't know about the full "rack" that appears in this picture, but I would call one of those pegs a khuuNTii.

(2)

Don Quixote is an "hidalgo", which is means the lowest echelon of Spanish nobility. They were an impoverished class, whose only privileges were their purported lineage (hidalgo means "son of something"), to own some small property, and the fact of being tax exempted. I am not sure if the English word "gentleman" fully captures this idea.
He is also of course not a "knight", concept that was outdated and comical by that time.

I don't know that you'll find a translation that carries with it all of this historical context, though maybe someone more familiar with South Asian history than me will be able to find something. Meanwhile, another option is using the word xaandaanii, as it suggests a "well-born" lineage without being very exalted.

(3) The words falaaN or falaanA mean roughly "such-and-such" and express a kind of indifference about stating precisely what is meant, so it could be a succinct way of conveying the sentiment expressed by the clause "de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme."

(4) I like the word mariyal for expressing the combination of skinny/weak(/old) that might be suggested by "flaco."

Here's my suggestion for how to put (1--4) together:

Spoiler

کچھ ہی عرصہ ہوا ہے کہ لا مانچا کی فلانی جگہ ایک خاندانی آدمی رہا کرتا تھا، اس جماعت کا نمونہ جو کھونٹی پر نیزے اور پرنی ڈھال ٹانگ کر اور مریل گھوڑے اور شکاری کتے پال کر رکھے رکھتی ہے۔

kuchh hii 3arSA hu'aa hai kI laa maanchaa kii falaanii jagah ek xaandaanii aadmii rahaa kartaa thaa, us jamaa3t kaa namuunA jo khuuNTii par neze aur puraanii Dhaal TaanG_kar aur mariyal ghoRe aur shikaarii kutte paal_kar rakhe rakhtii hai.

 

[Qureshpor]

There are many directions a translation can be taken and I'm looking forward to seeing the possibilities that people suggest. I'm a fan of Qureshpor jii's use of merii balaa jaane, and the following comment from Platts may help the doubts expressed in #5:

A بلا balā (rt. بلو 'to try'), s.f. Trial, affliction, misfortune, calamity, evil, ill; a person or thing accounted a trial, affliction, &c.; evil genius, evil spirit, devil, fiend; a wonderful or extraordinary person or thing; an awful or terrible person or thing; an insignificant, or vile, person or thing; excessive, fearful or awful amount or quantity (of): ... (N.B. The word balā is often used most idiomatically in a manner difficult to be rendered in English; e.g. tumhārī balā-se, sc. kām hai, lit. 'It concerns your evil genius'; it is no concern of yours; what is it to do with you, never mind: — tū kyā balā hai, 'What awful thing are you?' Who cares for you? You are of no significance: — kis balā-kā kām, 'What fearful or trying work'; what a fearful amount of work: — āj to balā mirćeṅ ḍālīṅ hain, 'They have put in a fearful or tremendous quantity of chillies to-day.')​

I'm also a fan on Qureshpor jii's use of bhalaa maanus. It's not too exalted, and the following bolded portion from Platts seems apt for Don Quixote in particular:

​

H بهلا भला bhalā [S. भद्रकः], adj. (f. -ī), Good, excellent, virtuous, righteous; honest, respectable; benevolent, kind; healthy, well, sound; fortunate, prosperous; strange, wonderful, admirable; comical, droll; ... bhalā mānus, bhalā mānas, s.m. Courteous, polite, or humane person; good, honest, or respectable man; gentleman; man of position or rank, nobleman; (ironic.) silly fellow, simpleton, fool; ...​

Here's another potential direction you could take a translation.

(1)

I don't know about the full "rack" that appears in this picture, but I would call one of those pegs a khuuNTii.

(2)

I don't know that you'll find a translation that carries with it all of this historical context, though maybe someone more familiar with South Asian history than me will be able to find something. Meanwhile, another option is using the word xaandaanii, as it suggests a "well-born" lineage without being very exalted.

(3) The words falaaN or falaanA mean roughly "such-and-such" and express a kind of indifference about stating precisely what is meant, so it could be a succinct way of conveying the sentiment expressed by the clause "de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme."

(4) I like the word mariyal for expressing the combination of skinny/weak(/old) that might be suggested by "flaco."

Here's my suggestion for how to put (1--4) together:

Spoiler

کچھ ہی عرصہ ہوا ہے کہ لا مانچا کی فلانی جگہ ایک خاندانی آدمی رہا کرتا تھا، اس جماعت کا نمونہ جو کھونٹی پر نیزے اور پرنی ڈھال ٹانگ کر اور مریل گھوڑے اور شکاری کتے پال کر رکھے رکھتی ہے۔

kuchh hii 3arSA hu'aa hai kI laa maanchaa kii falaanii jagah ek xaandaanii aadmii rahaa kartaa thaa, us jamaa3t kaa namuunA jo khuuNTii par neze aur puraanii Dhaal TaanG_kar aur mariyal ghoRe aur shikaarii kutte paal_kar rakhe rakhtii hai.

aevynn saaHib, you are at an advantage with your knowledge of Spanish.Thank you for your input. It's not a "spoiler" at all. The more the merrier.

1) I did see the picture that @MonsieurGonzalito SaaHib has posted. However, in the English translation he has suggested "shelf". Otherwise, would you believe, "khuuNTii" was the first word that came to my mind.

2) @MonsieurGonzalito SaaHib suggested "gentleman" and in his elucidation of the Spanish word "hidalgo", he used the phrases "the lowest echelon of Spanish nobility" which in turn is not certain but "purported". So, whilst "xaandaanii" would be a good word to use, I am not sure if that's what he was supposed to be. (By the way, I had "bhalaa-maanas" in mind, the usual pronunciation of the word in Urdu).

3) The term "fulaaN" is used to express, as you've said, the idea of "so and so". The writer probably knows the name of the place and if he put his mind to it, he would most likely remember it. But he doesn't care and is not interested in telling us what this place is called. Therefore "fulaaN" would not fit here. Besides, I don't think this word would have the required impact.

4) I like "mariyal", if that's what "flaco" means.

 

[aevynn]

you are at an advantage with your knowledge of Spanish.

My "knowledge" of Spanish is next to nil 😅 I am also relying on translations and dictionary entries (like this one, or this one plugged into Google Translate).

The term "fulaaN" is used to express, as you've said, the idea of "so and so". The writer probably knows the name of the place and if he put his mind to it, he would most likely remember it. But he doesn't care and is not interested in telling us what this place is called. Therefore "fulaaN" would not fit here. Besides, I don't think this word would have the required impact.

My experience with falaaN and falaanA is almost verbatim what you've described here: the missing detail is too unimportant and the speaker can't be bothered to provide it (even if they might be able to if they were to put their mind to it). It feels like it fits reasonably well to me, but there could very well be regional differences in usage patterns that accompany the difference in vowelization (to the extent that there's a perceptible vowel at all between the fe and laam, it's a zabar rather than a pesh in my circles).

I had "bhalaa-maanas" in mind, the usual pronunciation of the word

کوس کوس پر بدلے پانی، چار کوس پر بانی 🙂

 

[marrish]

My experience with falaaN and falaanA is almost verbatim what you've described here: the missing detail is too unimportant and the speaker can't be bothered to provide it (even if they might be able to if they were to put their mind to it). It feels like it fits reasonably well to me, but there could very well be regional differences

I'm not a Spanish speaker either, but that much I do know about Spanish and the said word — to be precise, in Urdu not spelled like above (? due to regional differences) — it could've been used by Cervantes 'as is', had he only wished so, but he doesn't seem to have found 'fulano' (note the spelling (must be owing to regional differences?)) a well-fitting match.

 

[Qureshpor]

My experience with falaaN and falaanA is almost verbatim what you've described here: the missing detail is too unimportant and the speaker can't be bothered to provide it (even if they might be able to if they were to put their mind to it). It feels like it fits reasonably well to me, but there could very well be regional differences in usage patterns that accompany the difference in vowelization (to the extent that there's a perceptible vowel at all between the fe and laam, it's a zabar rather than a pesh in my circles).

When I used the word "fulaaN", I did not even notice that you had spelled it "falaaN" and "falaanA". I understand that Miguel de Cervantes was the "baabaa Aadam" in Spanish literature and "widely regarded as the greatest writer in the Spanish language". His language therefore deserves to be translated in Urdu-i-mu3allaa and not anything else. Platts regards "falaanaa" as "vulgar" and we can't be involved in employing such "vulgar" language to translate his words! If it's any consolation, Urdu LuGhat, whose compilers to the best of my knowledge were crème de la crème of Urdu literary scene, also has the word with a pesh.

By the way, I had "bhalaa-maanas" in mind, the usual pronunciation of the word in Urdu).

Platts does have both "bhalaa-maanus" and "bhalaa-maanas"

کوس کوس پر بدلے پانی، چار کوس پر بانی 🙂

I have always heard "bhalaa-maanas" in Urdu. Urdu LuGhat has "bhalaa-maanas".

So..

پہلے کوس پر بھلا مانُس اور بھلا مانَس
دوسرے کوس پر بھلا مانُس اور بھلا مانَس
تیسرے کوس پر بھلا مانَس اور بھلا مانُس
چوتھے کوس پر بھلا مانَس پھر بھلا مانَس

In other words..

پہلے کوس پر گُلّی ہوتی ہے اور ڈنڈا لگنے پر دوسرے کوس پر گِلّی بن کر گرتی ہے۔

But, to be honest with you, it's not important as far as our written translations go, because Urdu doesn't normally reveal its short vowels!

 

[marrish]

^Cross-posted!

kuchh hii 3arSA hu'aa hai kI laa maanchaa kii falaanii jagah ek xaandaanii aadmii rahaa kartaa thaa, us jamaa3t kaa namuunA jo khuuNTii par neze aur puraanii Dhaal TaanG_kar aur mariyal ghoRe aur shikaarii kutte paal_kar rakhe rakhtii hai.

لامانچا کے کسی ایک مقام پر جس کا نام مجھے یاد کرنے کی خواہش نہیں ہے زیادہ وقت نہیں ہوا کہ ایک بھل مانس ُاس زمرے کامقیم تھا جو نیزہ میان، قدیم پرانی ڈھال، مریل گھوڑا، اور تیزرفتار تازی کتا رکھتے۔

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Wow, I am overwhelmed by all this wonderful input!

I will need time to digest it, but in the meantime let me answer a couple of questions that have been posed to me specifically:

Is "village" really an appropriate translation? At least in Modern Spanish, I would say "place" and not "village," but maybe it was different in Cervantes' time?

Threre is an agreement among the experts that "lugar", at that time and context, meant "a small rural village", and not generally a "place" as in modern Spanish.

I'm a fan of Qureshpor jii's use of merii balaa jaane,

The literal translation of "un lugar ... de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme" is "a place ... whose name I don't want to remember". At the time of Cervantes, apparently "wanting to remember" meant not only volition, but a more or less idiomatical way of simply saying "I can't recall".
So Cervantes is using some sort of pun, which can be interpreted either way.
(BTW: the author was briefly imprisioned in La Mancha, and it is even thought that he completed part of the Quijote while in jail. That would kind of explain his reluctance to identify the place).
For all of that, I also believe that @Qureshpor SaaHib suggestion is very appropriate!

ek xaandaanii aadmii rahaa kartaa thaa

I think this is the best approximation of "hidalgo" we can get, without resorting to too-historical-context-specific words.

"purported". So, whilst "xaandaanii" would be a good word to use, I am not sure if that's what he was supposed to be.

In XVI century Spain, the "purity of blood" had become a sorf ot hysterical national pastime (especially taking into account that probably everybody had some degree of Jewish, Arabic or Moorish blood in their veins). An "hidalgo" meant someone who, aside from his minor nobiliary privileges, could claim said imaginary "purity".

1) I did see the picture that @MonsieurGonzalito SaaHib has posted. However, in the English translation he has suggested "shelf". Otherwise, would you believe, "khuuNTii" was the first word that came to my mind.

The word used by Cervantes for the place where lances were kept, "astillero", puzzles modern Spanish speakers, and even the experts, since there aren't many attested usages, not even at the author's time. It is believed to be some section of the house where arms and shields were kept, maybe hanging on the wall, maybe for heraldic or nostalgic reasons, as sort of a panoply. There is no indication about the exact way those arms were kept. So "rack", "wall pegs", "shelf" are all valid guesses.
("Astillero" in modern Spanish means "shipyard", a totally unrelated meaning).
It occurred to me that nobility from all over the world might have some "nostalgic place on the wall, niche, etc. where to display arms of olden times". That would be the word we are looking for.

I'm also a fan on Qureshpor jii's use of bhalaa maanus. It's not too exalted, and the following bolded portion from Platts seems apt for Don Quixote in particular:
H بهلا भला bhalā [S. भद्रकः], adj. (f. -ī), Good, excellent, virtuous, righteous; honest, respectable; benevolent, kind; healthy, well, sound; fortunate, prosperous; strange, wonderful, admirable; comical, droll; ... bhalā mānus, bhalā mānas, s.m. Courteous, polite, or humane person; good, honest, or respectable man; gentleman; man of position or rank, nobleman; (ironic.) silly fellow, simpleton, fool; ...

No, this is not the introductory depiction that Cervantes does of the character. It has nothing to do with his virtues or qualities (as "noble" could also imply in English or Spanish), but only to his social class.

3) The term "fulaaN" is used to express, as you've said, the idea of "so and so". The writer probably knows the name of the place and if he put his mind to it, he would most likely remember it. But he doesn't care and is not interested in telling us what this place is called. Therefore "fulaaN" would not fit here. Besides, I don't think this word would have the required impact.

I agree.
the place / village is not unimportant. It is erased from the author's mind for a reason (willing or not), but it is not unspecific or preceived derogatorily.
[BTW, in modern Spanish the word fulano/fulana exists, and it is applied only to people, as a noun, implying "some unspefidied / unimportant person". It can be used to pad up enumerations: "Fulano y Mengano fueron al cine" = "two people (no matter who) went to the cinema". Applied to a woman ("una fulana"), it can be a euphemism for "a prostitute".
It was also inherited from Arabic.]

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

What is your motive for translating a Spanish sentence into Urdu?

I want to prove overall that it is possible, and decorate some writing of mine with such a sentence, wirtten in Urdu.

 

[Qureshpor]

Threre is an agreement among the experts that "lugar", at that time and context, meant "a small rural village", and not generally a "place" as in modern Spanish.

Ok, I'll amend my translation with this in mind.

For all of that, I also believe that @Qureshpor SaaHib suggestion is very appropriate!

Thank you. "merii balaa jaane" then stays!

It occurred to me that nobility from all over the world might have some "nostalgic place on the wall, niche, etc. where to display arms of olden times". That would be the word we are looking for.

Well, طاق is "niche" in its primary meaning as quoted in Ghalib's shi3r. So, طاق it is.

No, this is not the introductory depiction that Cervantes does of the character. It has nothing to do with his virtues or qualities (as "noble" could also imply in English or Spanish), but only to his social class.

It seems to me that بھلا مانس bhalaa-maanas fits the bill then. You originally instinctively chose "gentleman" and I think bhalaa-maanas is a fairly light and neutral word.

I agree.
the place / village is not unimportant. It is erased from the author's mind for a reason (willing or not), but it is not unspecific ...

Ok, thank you.

لامنچا میں کہیں، ایک دیہات میں جس کا نام میری بلا جانے، تھوڑا ہی عرصہ پہلے ایک ایسے بھلا مانس کا بسیرا تھا جس کے پاس طاق میں ایک قدیم ڈھال اور

نیزہ تھا اور دوڑ لگانے کے لئے ایک لاغر جفا کش گھوڑا اور تازی کُتّا۔
​

 

[desi4life]

It seems to me that بھلا مانس bhalaa-maanas fits the bill then. You originally instinctively chose "gentleman" and I think bhalaa-maanas is a fairly light and neutral word.

Would “bhalaa aadamii” be a more common way of expressing this than “bhalaa maanas”?

 

[Qureshpor]

Would “bhalaa aadamii” be a more common way of expressing this than “bhalaa maanas”?

No, I don't think so. "bhalaa-maanas" though equivalent in meaning word for word, carries a package of meanings amongst which is "a gentleman". "bhalaa-maanas" is quite common in Urdu speech and writings.

 

[Sheikh_14]

Hazrat can be used for any male or female person* but usually it is to afford respect and dignity to the addressed. It is often used for prophets and other religious personalities, poets, scholars but I could, in polite speech, refer to you as "Hazrat". I don't believe it is used to imply "a gentleman, albeit in a set phrase خواتین و حضرات it is used in the plural for gentlemen.

*حضرت مریم علیہا السلام Hazrat Maryam 3alaihaa_ssalaam

*حضرت عیسیٰ علیہ السّلام Hazrat 3iisaa 3alaihi_ssalaam

I used بھلا مانس deliberately for "gentleman" even though there are several Urdu equivalents available for this. I felt it best suited the context.

bhalā mānus, bhalā mānas, s.m. Courteous, polite, or humane person; good, honest, or respectable man; gentleman; man of
position or rank, nobleman

What is your motive for translating a Spanish sentence into Urdu?

Much of the above is correct. That being said besides for individuals of religious import it would be odd to refer to a woman as Hazrat. There are several other terms which cover that area. Generally Hazrat means SaaHib E A'zmat thence gentleman or venerated personage isn't a bad translation. In fact if anything its quite accurate. Its mostly used for grand personalities, in a way similar to janaab. Hazraat being the plural. Bhaalaa-maanus I am sure is correct, but not oft-used. It would be equivalent to offering Janam-bhuumii as an entry in a document as opposed to Maulid. Both are fine, one is more common.

You could translate somebody explain to that gentleman as "ko'ii un Hazrat ko zaraa samjhaa'e".With that being said since Don Quixote was a lowly man thence in our quixotic quest we ought to be limiting our vocabulary to just AadmiyoN/mard/mardaan/ibn E aadam/aadam-zaad/aadam-zaat/banda.

Also yes flaco means be-jaan, tang-Haal, kangaal in Spanish za'iif and emaciated. Thence maryal is perfect. The horse has been described as an unimpressive and feeble specimen. Otherwise use of the term depends on context, some use it as a compliment in the sense of patlaa-duublaa. Since the dictionary definiton of the term is thin, but it can also mean weakling. As for the hook isn't qulaaba another good term for it? KhuuNTii's dictionary definition is that of a clothes-peg but I recall that in modern use it extends to a hook. With this in mind how about Qulaaba/khuuNTii-taxtii/rack for the coat/door racks? I proferred taxtii because more often than not a line of hooks are installed on a metal plate. That being said how about neze-daan since the rack in question is specific to a lance?

Love the "merii balaa jaane". Its a softer way of saying wherever the hell, Urdu has a knack of not using expletives and yet being just as vivid. No other turn of phrase would do the sentence as much justice as the above. An even politer version could be Allah/xudaa/bhagwaan jaane kahaaN, yaad karnaa gawaara nahiiN.

 

[Qureshpor]

Bhaalaa-maanus I am sure is correct, but not oft-used. It would be equivalent to offering Janam-bhuumii as an entry in a document as opposed to Maulid. Both are fine, one is more common.

I would say "bhalaa-maanas" is quite common, both in Urdu speech and writing. I wouldn't put it in the same category as "janam-bhuumii".

KhuuNTii's dictionary definition is that of a clothes-peg but I recall that in modern use it extends to a hook. With this in mind how about Qulaaba/khuuNTii-taxtii/rack for the coat/door racks? I proferred taxtii because more often than not a line of hooks are installed on a metal plate. That being said how about neze-daan since the rack in question is specific to a lance?

Choice of words is obviously dependant upon the translator and if you feel "qulaabah" etc fits better, then fair enough. You will have difficulty hanging a "lance" on a hook though whereas if a "taaq" was big enough, it could hold a shield, a lance and more! If you kept a nezah in a nezah-daan, where would you put your shield?

An even politer version could be Allah/xudaa/bhagwaan jaane kahaaN, yaad karnaa gawaara nahiiN.

I like your version, especially the use of the word "gavaaraa" which comes from the verb "to digest"... the implication being "something being not palatable".

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Does dublaa-patlaa exist in Urdu (to referer to the horse)?

 

[Qureshpor]

Does dublaa-patlaa exist in Urdu (to referer to the horse)?

Yes it does but why use two words when one "laaGhar" does the job?! ٖFurther more, a "nag" is a work horse, hence

لاغر جفاکش گھوڑا

 

[Alfaaz]

"Don Quixote", probably the most recognized sentence in the Spanish language
...
I want to prove overall that it is possible, and decorate some writing of mine with such a sentence, wirtten in Urdu.

Just in case it might of interest, an Urdu translation/adaptation (published in 1894) by Ratan Nath Sarshar is currently available here.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

I am embarassed to ask, @Alfaaz Saahib, but, could you tell me the page number where the starting sentence is? ( can't find any "لامنچا" )
Then I will try to transcribe it here.

 

[aevynn]

Page 11 in the viewer's numbering is where it begins. You should be forewarned that the content of the first sentence of this translation/adaptation is fairly different from the original's.

 

[marrish]

خدائی فوجدار
یعنے
ترجمۂ ڈان کوئکساٹ

ؔمترجمۂ‌ پنڈت رتن‌ناتھ‌صاحب‌ور سرشار
جلد اول
پہٰلا باب
فصل۔۱​

کئی صدی کا زمانہ ہوا کہ یہ بزرگ‌وار یعنی ہماری کتاب کے ہیرو خدائی فوجدار کسی گانؤن مین جسکا نام نحوست کے خیال سے لوگ ابتک زبان پر نہین لاتے زعفران کے کھیت مین عین دوپہر کو عشرے کے دن چھینکتے تولد ہوئے تھے۔ ظاہر ہے کہ جو آدمی اِس طمطراق اور دھوم دھام اور عظمت کے ساتھ پیداہو‌گا وہ بڑھکے کیسا‌کچھ نہ‌نکلیگا۔ اِس بے‌تکے‌پن کے صدقے کہ زعفران‌زار مین تو تولد ہوئے مگر عشرے کے دن۔ لیکن یار لوگ بھی کہین پر نہین چوکتے۔ ادھر یہ بیچارہ دنیا مین برآمد ہوا اور اُدھر کسی دل‌لگی‌باز نے چھینکدیا۔ کون نہین جانتا کہ میان اینٹھا سنگھ جب لڑائی پر جاتے ہین تو لوگ ہتھے‌ہی پر ٹوک دیتے ہین۔ آ چھین۔ اِدھر چھینک کی آواز آئی اور اُدھر اُنھون‌نے ٹوپی سر سے پھینک دی۔

ہمارے خدائی فوجدار کے پاس ایک دبلا پتلا نقات کانا ٹٹو تھا۔ اور ایک بدھو نفر۔ کانا ٹٹو اور بدھو نفر یہ مثل انھِین کے وقت سے مشہور ہوئی ہے۔ ایک مرھیل کتا بھی ساتھ رہتا تھا۔ رفیق بے‌زبان اِنکی غذا بھی ساری خدائی سے نرالی تھی۔ پیر کے دن مسور کی دال صبح شام۔ منگل کو فجر کے وقت ابلی ہوئی ترکاری اور رات کو نہاری۔ بدھ کے دن غرہ۔ خالی دن ہوتا ہے نا بُدھ کو روزے کی نیت باندھ لی جمعرات کو کبوتر کا قورمہ تیل مین پکا ہوا اور رائی۔ سہ‌پہر کو خرگوش کا گوشت۔ شام کو ساگ اور روٹی۔ جمعہ کے دن بھاڑے کے بھنے چانول اور گھی مین خوب کڑکڑا کے ہلدی۔ ہفتہ کے دن اُبالے ہوئے۔۔۔​

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Thanks, @aevynn jii and @marrish SaaHib! Yes, quite interpretative, to say the least.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

One last question, on the Urdu side of this:
The "old leather shield" is an extrapolation of the English translators, but the Spanish original is "adarga antigua" (an antique adarga, which is some sort of rawhide buckler of Moorish origin).
Shield (Adarga) | Mexican | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Is there a more specific word for "buckler" in Urdu, as opposed to a (large, infantry) "shield"?

 

[Alfaaz]

I am embarassed to ask, @Alfaaz Saahib, but, could you tell me the page number where the starting sentence is? ( can't find any "لامنچا" )
Then I will try to transcribe it here.

Please excuse the late reply. Other forum members have already covered everything. I was going to suggest additional words. Two of them (پھری and درقہ) have already been mentioned by aevynn SaaHib in your other thread:

The same word is listed in Platts (and here and here). Also found in Platts is a word that shares etymology with Spanish "adarga."

The only thing that can be added is that سپر is also present for shield, etc.

اب سپر ڈھونڈ کوئی اپنے لیے
تیر کم رہ گئے کمانوں میں

امیر قزلباش​

 

[Qureshpor]

Please excuse the late reply. Other forum members have already covered everything. I was going to suggest additional words. Two of them (پھری and درقہ) have already been mentioned by aevynn SaaHib in your other thread:

The only thing that can be added is that سپر is also present for shield, etc.

اب سپر ڈھونڈ کوئی اپنے لیے
تیر کم رہ گئے کمانوں میں

امیر قزلباش​

Thank you @Alfaaz SaaHib. May I please ask why you use a small font in your responses. (You have posted in even smaller fonts in the past )

 

[Alfaaz]

Thank you @Alfaaz SaaHib. May I please ask why you use a small font in your responses. (You have posted in even smaller fonts in the past)

You're welcome.

Thanks for the detailed answers!

And thank you for your "shrunken" appreciation!

Thank you too for having posed the question.

I think it is the property of TNR that it appears so tiny on the screen.

Edit: Apart from this, any threads that were created in the old version of the forum unfortunately appear one to two font sizes smaller in the current forum (as can be seen in the quoted/linked thread). I had mentioned this to moderators when WRF was shifted to this current version/platform, but it wasn't clear why the issue in font size (particularly TNR) had occurred.

 

[Qureshpor]

I am embarassed to ask, @Alfaaz Saahib, but, could you tell me the page number where the starting sentence is? ( can't find any "لامنچا" ) Then I will try to transcribe it here.

That's possibly because the said word is written as لامانشا

 

[Qureshpor]

One last question, on the Urdu side of this:
The "old leather shield" is an extrapolation of the English translators, but the Spanish original is "adarga antigua" (an antique adarga, which is some sort of rawhide buckler of Moorish origin).
Shield (Adarga) | Mexican | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Is there a more specific word for "buckler" in Urdu, as opposed to a (large, infantry) "shield"?

Yes, there is.

The Arabic word is الدّرقہ "ad-daraqah". So, there you have it. The same word (daraqah), as @Alfaaz SaaHib has mentioned exists in Urdu. So, my translation could include "daraqah" but Dhaal is the more familiar word albeit daraqah would be more accurate from the Spanish perspective.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

The Arabic word is الدّرقہ "ad-daraqah". So, there you have it. The same word (daraqah), as @Alfaaz SaaHib has mentioned exists in Urdu. So, my translation could include "daraqah" but Dhaal is the more familiar word albeit daraqah would be more accurate from the Spanish perspective.

In 53 years of speaking Spanish, I only heard "adarga" in that particular sentence, ever.
So I guess daraqah will convey the exact necessary level of baroque exoticism.

 

[Qureshpor]

En un lugar de La Mancha, de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme, no ha mucho tiempo que vivía un hidalgo de los de lanza en astillero, adarga antigua, rocín flaco, y galgo corredor." ...

And here is an acceptable translation into English:

There are seventy odd translations in English. As a matter of interest, the earliest translation into English was by Thomas Shelton in 1612 (part 1) and 1620 (part 2)

"There lived, not long since, in a certain village of the Mancha, the name whereof I purposely omit, a gentleman of their calling that used to pile up in their halls old lances, halberts, morions and such other armours and weapons. He was, besides, master of an ancient target, a lean stallion and a swift greyhound."

Here is the first sentence from Charles Jarvis's translation of 1742

"Down in a village of La Mancha, the name of which I have no desire to recollect, there lived, not long ago, one of those gentlemen who usually keep a lance upon a rack, an older buckler, a lean horse, and a coursing greyhound."

What’s the best translation of Don Quixote? (Part 1)

A more modern translation by Burton Raffel in 1995

"In a village in La Mancha (I don't want to bother you with its name) there lived, not very long ago, one of those gentleman who keep a lance in a lance-rack, an ancient shield, a skinny old horse, and a fast greyhound".

In all these it appears that only the lance was kept on/in a rack.

 

[Qureshpor]

Ok, thank you.

لامنچا میں کہیں، ایک دیہات میں جس کا نام میری بلا جانے، تھوڑا ہی عرصہ پہلے ایک ایسے بھلا مانس کا بسیرا تھا جس کے پاس طاق میں ایک قدیم ڈھال اور

نیزہ تھا اور دوڑ لگانے کے لئے ایک لاغر جفا کش گھوڑا اور تازی کُتّا۔
​

I should have written "بھلے مانس کا".

کچھ زیادہ عرصے کی بات نہیں، لامنچا کے کسی دیہات میں جس کا نام میری بلا جانے، ایک شریف زادہ رہائش پذیر تھا جس کے پاس کھونٹی سے آویزاں ایک نیزہ، ایک قدیم درقہ، خستہ جان گھوڑا اور سبک پا تازی کتّا تھا۔​

kuchh ziyaadah 3arse kii baat nahiiN, La Mancha ke kisii dehaat meN jis kaa naam merii balaa jaane, ek shariif-zaadah rihaa'ish-paziir thaa jis ke paas khuuNtii se aavezaaN ek nezah, ek qadiim daraqah, xastah-jaan ghoRaa aur subuk-paa taazii kuttaa thaa.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

There is an important element that goes missing, starting from #4 approximately (and which is also missing in most formal translations I see anywhere).
Most translations state that Don Quixote "had" or "kept" a fast greyhound, a lance in the rack, etc. That is not correct.
He is rather "a gentleman of (the kind of) those who keeps ..."
In English I believe this sort of attributive usage is often hyphenated:
He is a "lance-in-niche, old-buckler, skinny-nag, running-greyhound hidalgo".
In Spanish ("un hidalgo de los de lanza, adarga, etc." = "from among those of ...")

I believe the initial Google translate attempt tries to capture that construction, using hazraat (which I believe is a plural), and then:

hazraat meN se ek rɛhtaa thaa, jinhoN_ne laans-rek
"he was one from (in) those nobles who ..."

As a matter of fact, there is no verb in Spanish attached to those elements; saying that this gentleman "has" (ke paas) or "keeps" (rakhte the) them is merely a translation approximation of the construction above. Hence my insistance in that -vaalaa would have been especially appropriate, if the length of the sentence allowed it.

At the initial point of the introduction, there is no connection between the lance, the skinny nag, etc, mentioned there and the image typically presented of Don Quixote mounted on a nag and wielding a lance. The author is just telling that he is the kind of person who would keep those kind of elements.
It is not like in a child's tale, where every element that is introduced has to have a relevance (and that is also why I would avoid the "a / ek" altogether).

Does the meN se ek ..., jinhoN_ne construction above capture what I am trying to say?

My attempt:

xaandaanii aadmioN meN se ek rɛhtaa thaa, jinhoN_ne taalq-meN-niiza(h), puraanaa daraqa(h), mariyal ghoRaa aur suk paa taazi kutaa - vaale the.

Can the -vaalee support so many words before? Does the native speaker have the "patience" to wait for its resolution?

 

[littlepond]

My attempt:

xaandaanii aadmioN meN se ek rɛhtaa thaa, jinhoN_ne taalq-meN-niiza(h), puraanaa daraqa(h), mariyal ghoRaa aur suk paa taazi kutaa - vaale the.

Can the -vaalee support so many words before? Does the native speaker have the "patience" to wait for its resolution?

While your syntax is itself wrong, even if it were right, using "vaalaa" with so many words would be an inelegant option.

 

[Qureshpor]

He is rather "a gentleman of (the kind of) those who keeps ..."

He is a "lance-in-niche, old-buckler, skinny-nag, running-greyhound hidalgo".
In Spanish ("un hidalgo de los de lanza, adarga, etc." = "from among those of ...")

Understood.

hazraat meN se ek rɛhtaa thaa, jinhoN_ne laans-rek
"he was one from (in) those nobles who ..."

I still feel Hazrat doesn't fit here.

As a matter of fact, there is no verb in Spanish attached to those elements; saying that this gentleman "has" (ke paas) or "keeps" (rakhte the) them is merely a translation approximation of the construction above. Hence my insistance in that -vaalaa would have been especially appropriate, if the length of the sentence allowed it.

What verbs are being used in the Spanish original. Please clarify. On the one hand we have "lived" in the past tense and it appears that we need to "keep" in the present.

At the initial point of the introduction, there is no connection between the lance, the skinny nag, etc, mentioned there and the image typically presented of Don Quixote mounted on a nag and wielding a lance. The author is just telling that he is the kind of person who would keep those kind of elements.

Understood

It is not like in a child's tale, where every element that is introduced has to have a relevance (and that is also why I would avoid the "a / ek" altogether).

Let's see what can be done regarding this.

Does the meN se ek ..., jinhoN_ne construction above capture what I am trying to say?

Yes it does. I did think of a similar option (and please note @marrish SaaHib has attempted to capture this in his #15. Perhaps, bearing in mind what you've said, the addition of "haiN" to his sentence would bring out the sentiments you are suggesting). Does your "meN se ek ..., jinhoN_ne imply he belonged to a class of people/stratum of people who would do this sort of thing? I started off by using the word طبقہ but then changed my mind?

My attempt:

xaandaanii aadmioN meN se ek rɛhtaa thaa, jinhoN_ne taalq-meN-niiza(h), puraanaa daraqa(h), mariyal ghoRaa aur suk paa taazi kutaa - vaale the.

Well, if Miguel de Cervantes had chosen to write ln this manner in Urdu, he would have have long been placed in the طاقِ نِسیاں! Having said this, it is not impossible to employ a style resembling this but it may end up sounding as if it was written for children. Just my view.

Can the -vaalee support so many words before?

It is a possibility. We'll have to see if at least one or two constructions can be replaced with "vaalaa".

Does the native speaker have the "patience" to wait for its resolution?

I can't speak on behalf of native speakers of Urdu but I as a non-native speaker have all the patience that will be required! I see it as an intellectual challenge!

 

[Qureshpor]

What sayeth thou about this?

لامنچا کے کسی دیہات میں جس کا نام طاقِ نِسیاں پر ہی رکھنا بہتر، عرصۂ دراز کی بات نہیں ایک شریف زادہ سکونت پذیر تھا جس کا تعلّق اُس طبقے سے تھا

جس کا معمول نیزہ بطاق، درقۂ کہن، اسپِ لاغر و جفاکش اور سگِ تازیٔ تیز رفتار رکھنا ہوتا ہے۔
​

La Mancha ke kisii dehaat meN jis kaa naam taaq-i-nisyaaN par hii rakhnaa bihtar, 3arsah-i-daraaz kii baat nahiiN ek shariif-zaadah sukuunat-paziir thaa jis kaa ta3alluq us tabqe se thaa jis kaa ma3muul nezah ba-taaq, daraqah-i-kuhan, asp-i-laaGhar-o-jafaa-kash aur sag-i-taazii-i-tez-raftaar rakhnaa hotaa hai.

taaq-i-nisyaaN - niche of forgetfulness

3arsah-i-daraaz - a long time

shariif-zaadah - a man of good breeding

sukuunat-paziir - residing

tabqah - layer (of society)

ma3muul - norm

nezah ba-taaq - lance in niche

daraqah-i-kuhan - old adarga

asp-i-laaGhar-o-jafaa-kash - lean and hard-working horse

sag-i-taazii-i-tez-raftaar - a swift greyhound

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Does your "meN se ek ..., jinhoN_ne imply he belonged to a class of people/stratum of people who would do this sort of thing?

Yes.

(and please note @marrish SaaHib has attempted to capture this in his #15.

You are right!

laamaNchaa ke kisii ek muqaam par jis kaa naam mujhe yaad karne kii xvaahish nahiiN hai, zyaadaa vaqt nahiiN huaa ki ek bhal maaNs us zumre kaa muqiim thaa jo nezaa myaan, qadiim puraanii Dhaal, mariyal ghoRaa aur tez-raftaar taazii kuttaa rakhte.

And @marrish SaaHib also understood (although I omitted to mention it), that such a category of people would be common and known to the audience of the time.

 

[Qureshpor]

^ There are a few errors in your transcription of @marrish SaaHib's translation but I leave that to marrish SaaHib's discretion.

 

[marrish]

I had the Spanish original before my eyes as quoted in No. 1. and tried to imitate the narration style and word order of that Spanish sentence. At the end of my sentence, however, it should have been "rakhtaa". I'm inviting MonsieurGonzalito to do beter his level at the transcription, and give the transcription of Ratan Nath "Sarshaar"'s Urdu rendition, which is still due!

 

[Qureshpor]

At the end of my sentence, however, it should have been "rakhtaa"

marrish SaaHib, I would interpret the meaning to be "rakhtaa thaa". @MonsieurGonzalito seems to be inicating that "keep" is to be rendered in the present tense. Perhaps I am misinterpreting your rendition.

 

[marrish]

I had the time perspective of the author in mind — and the fact that the sentence reads "not much time ago". What do you think?

---
Further to the above, I have left out "thaa" or "hae" for the reader to decide. Perhaps the best solution would have been to go for "jo ... rakkhe".

 

[Qureshpor]

I had the time perspective of the author in mind — and the fact that the sentence reads "not much time ago". What do you think?

That refers to your "bhal-maanas" living in the past. I understand the implication that he was from that breed of people who did x and y in the past and still do x and y.

 

[marrish]

I agree with what you are saying above, Qureshpor SaaHib. I've edited my last.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

@MonsieurGonzalito seems to be inicating that "keep" is to be rendered in the present tense.

an hidalgo lived of those of the lance-in-niche, old adarga, etc.
The category exists, it doesn't matter if it is current or not.