Sorry, I do not follow. I was under the impression that the verb "keep" is to rendered in the present tense. Have I misunderstood you? Is my latest translation accurate in conveying the meaning of the Spanish sentence?
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Urdu: first sentence of "Don Quixote'
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MonsieurGonzalito
Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
What I am trying to say is that there is no verb in the Spanish phrasing.
An hidalgo lived "of the lance-in-niche" kind.
There is no verb indicating if he keeps, kept, owns, or owned the lance.
There is the time of the narration, and the time where the author lived.
If such category of people were still alive when the author lived, then rakhnaa hotaa hai (or whatever verb in present we choose to translate the relationship between the character and those objects) is correct.
If such category were all dead by the time the author's time, then it should have been the, I guess.
But the Spanish sentence there is no need to get into that at all. Because there is no verb used to indicate the relationship between the character and the objects. He is just a gentleman "of those of the lance, shield, nag, and greyhound".
An hidalgo lived "of the lance-in-niche" kind.
There is no verb indicating if he keeps, kept, owns, or owned the lance.
It depends.
There is the time of the narration, and the time where the author lived.
If such category of people were still alive when the author lived, then rakhnaa hotaa hai (or whatever verb in present we choose to translate the relationship between the character and those objects) is correct.
If such category were all dead by the time the author's time, then it should have been the, I guess.
But the Spanish sentence there is no need to get into that at all. Because there is no verb used to indicate the relationship between the character and the objects. He is just a gentleman "of those of the lance, shield, nag, and greyhound".
marrish
Senior Member
اُردو Urdu
The problem is that the verb ''keep'' is absent from the original but we used it in the Urdu translations. In the original it reads 'اُن نیزہ بطاق، قدیم الدرقہ ، وغیرہ والوں
سے ایک چھوٹا زمیندار ۔۔ un nezah ba-taaq, qadim aldarqah, waGhairah vaaloN se ek chhoTaa zamiiNdaar...
For the said "place" or "village" I'd go for قریہ which is commonly employed in such instances, especially because it's broader than 'gaa'oN'. I didn't know the Spanish "lugar" could be translated as a settlement at that time of this discussion.
[partially cross-posted]
I was thinking of misl-e-SaaHibaan-e-nezah dar taaq, aldarqah-e-qadiim-o-xastah, ghoRaa jafaa-kash-o-qariib-ba-marg, aur taazii kuttaa tez-raftaar.
I'd renounced that train of thought because I feared MonsieurGonzalito SaaHib would object to the word "SaaHibaan" and I'd have had to elucidate.
سے ایک چھوٹا زمیندار ۔۔ un nezah ba-taaq, qadim aldarqah, waGhairah vaaloN se ek chhoTaa zamiiNdaar...
For the said "place" or "village" I'd go for قریہ which is commonly employed in such instances, especially because it's broader than 'gaa'oN'. I didn't know the Spanish "lugar" could be translated as a settlement at that time of this discussion.
[partially cross-posted]
I was thinking of misl-e-SaaHibaan-e-nezah dar taaq, aldarqah-e-qadiim-o-xastah, ghoRaa jafaa-kash-o-qariib-ba-marg, aur taazii kuttaa tez-raftaar.
I'd renounced that train of thought because I feared MonsieurGonzalito SaaHib would object to the word "SaaHibaan" and I'd have had to elucidate.
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MonsieurGonzalito
Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
Yes! This kind of structure is more faithful to the Spanish original.
I posted my latest translation with these kinds of formations but then chickened out! I thought it would be frowned upon!
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Please post the Spanish again, marking any verbs if present. (I presume there must be "lived" somewhere)
MonsieurGonzalito
Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
"lived" yes, but no "kept" or "had".
En un lugar de la Mancha, de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme, no ha mucho tiempo que vivía un hidalgo de los de lanza en astillero, adarga antigua, rocín flaco y galgo corredor.
In a village of La Mancha, whose name I don't want to remember, lived not so long ago an hidalgo, "of those of" lance-in-rack, ancient buckler, skinny nag, and running greyhound.
En un lugar de la Mancha, de cuyo nombre no quiero acordarme, no ha mucho tiempo que vivía un hidalgo de los de lanza en astillero, adarga antigua, rocín flaco y galgo corredor.
In a village of La Mancha, whose name I don't want to remember, lived not so long ago an hidalgo, "of those of" lance-in-rack, ancient buckler, skinny nag, and running greyhound.
So, we have at least three verbs (highlighted)?
MonsieurGonzalito
Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
Yes. But no verb to indicate the relationship between the gentleman and the lance, buckler, horse or dog (which seemed to be the subject of the latest posts).
Using @marrish SaaHib's suggestion....
لامنچا کے کسی قریہ میں جس کا نام طاقِ نِسیاں میں ہی چھوڑنا بہتر، زیادہ مُدّت نہیں ہوئی ایک اہلِ نیزہ بطاق، درقۂ کہن، اسپ ِلاغر و قریب بمرگ اور سگِ
تازیٔ تیز گام میں ایک شریف زادہ سکونت پذیر تھا۔
La-Mancha ke kisii qaryah meN jis kaa naam taaq-i-nisyaaN meN hii chhoRnaa bihtar, ziyaadah muddat nahiiN hu'ii ek ahl-i-nezah ba-taaq, daraqah-i-kuhan, asp-i-laaGhar-o-qariib ba-marg aur sag-i-taazii-i-tez-gaam meN, ek shariif-zaadah sukuunat-paziir thaa.
Translation.
In some hamlet of La-mancha whose name would be best left in the niche of forgetfulness, not long ago amongst those of lance on rack, an ancient buckler, a skinny almost dead horse and a fleet-footed greyhound, lived a man of good lineage.
لامنچا کے کسی قریہ میں جس کا نام طاقِ نِسیاں میں ہی چھوڑنا بہتر، زیادہ مُدّت نہیں ہوئی ایک اہلِ نیزہ بطاق، درقۂ کہن، اسپ ِلاغر و قریب بمرگ اور سگِ
تازیٔ تیز گام میں ایک شریف زادہ سکونت پذیر تھا۔
Translation.
In some hamlet of La-mancha whose name would be best left in the niche of forgetfulness, not long ago amongst those of lance on rack, an ancient buckler, a skinny almost dead horse and a fleet-footed greyhound, lived a man of good lineage.
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MonsieurGonzalito
Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
From my ignorant point of view, I prefer @Qureshpor SaaHib last attempt, because un jaisoN ke se forces us to use a verb somewhere inside, and avoiding it is an important stylistic point.
In my opinion, it is important from the author's point of view to "leave in suspense" if that class of people still exists, or how long that "not long ago" really is.
In my opinion, it is important from the author's point of view to "leave in suspense" if that class of people still exists, or how long that "not long ago" really is.
Then why not....
-- and we have two counts of "vaale".لامنچا کے کسی گاؤں میں جس کا نام میں یاد رکھنا نہیں چاہتا، اُن لوگوں میں جو کھونٹی میں بھالے، بہت پرانی چمڑے کی ڈھال، چھرَیرے مریل ٹٹّو اور پھرتیلے شکاری کتّے والے ہیں، تھوڑا ہی عرصہ پہلے ایک اُونچی ذات والے بھلے مانس کا بسیرا تھا۔
In some village of La Mancha whose name I do not want to remember, among those who are lance on hook, very old leather shield, skinny half-dead pony and a brisk hunting dog, not long ago, was the residence of a high caste gentleman.
marrish
Senior Member
اُردو Urdu
^^ Yet again a new wording
This time let's say جس کی شمار اُن کھونٹی میں بھالے، پھٹی پرانی چرمی ڈھال، ایک چھریرے مرھیل ٹٹو بمعہ پھرتیلے شکاری کتے والوں میں ہے۔
jis kii shumaar un khuuNTii meN bhaale, phaTii puraanii charmii Dhaal, ek ... TaTTuu ba-ma3 .. shikaarii kutte waaloN meN hai.
I remember from earlier in this thread that "uuNchii zaat" wouldn't fit the fact that it was supposed to be the lowest rank, while uuNchii zaat could be taken to be 'higher' than intended.
This time let's say جس کی شمار اُن کھونٹی میں بھالے، پھٹی پرانی چرمی ڈھال، ایک چھریرے مرھیل ٹٹو بمعہ پھرتیلے شکاری کتے والوں میں ہے۔
jis kii shumaar un khuuNTii meN bhaale, phaTii puraanii charmii Dhaal, ek ... TaTTuu ba-ma3 .. shikaarii kutte waaloN meN hai.
I remember from earlier in this thread that "uuNchii zaat" wouldn't fit the fact that it was supposed to be the lowest rank, while uuNchii zaat could be taken to be 'higher' than intended.
MonsieurGonzalito
Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
What would be the first part of this sentence? Where does it attach to the previous sentence in #63?
marrish
Senior Member
اُردو Urdu
I suggested a rearrangement, starting with the last clause of QP SaaHib's post 63, but it's a secondary matter. Also suggested that bhalaa maanas didn't exactly live, or was born amongst such and such but rather just was after the manner of such and such.
MonsieurGonzalito
Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
un logoN ke jis kii shumaar ... vaaloN meN hai?
Another possibility for the latter part (not too far from proposals above) might be:
زیادہ وقت نہیں بیتا کہ لا مانچا کے نہ جانے کونسے گاؤں گراؤں میں ایک خاندانی شخص رہا کرتا تھا جو مثال ۔۔۔ والے طبقے کا تھا۔
Not entirely unrelatedly: @MonsieurGonzalito jii, is there a reason you opted to write لا منچا in the OP instead of لا مانچا? Is a schwa in the second syllable actually closer to the Spanish pronunciation?
زیادہ وقت نہیں بیتا کہ لا مانچا کے نہ جانے کونسے گاؤں گراؤں میں ایک خاندانی شخص رہا کرتا تھا جو مثال ۔۔۔ والے طبقے کا تھا۔
Not entirely unrelatedly: @MonsieurGonzalito jii, is there a reason you opted to write لا منچا in the OP instead of لا مانچا? Is a schwa in the second syllable actually closer to the Spanish pronunciation?
MonsieurGonzalito
Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
No particular reason, it is just how it came when typing it. Spanish has no concept of long or short vowels. "Mancha" has meaning, "stain", but I doubt any inhabitant associates it with that.
As many other Spanish toponyms, it seems to be some Hispanized version of Arabic المنشأ (which, incidentally, has also short vowels).
But I just realized upon research. If the Indicized, Persianized versions are one word and all long, i.e. لامانچا, then probably that should be used.
Choosing zabar vs alif is making a distinction in quality that's more fundamental than the distinction in length. The first part of منچا would sound a bit like the English word "munch," while the first part of مانچا would sound a bit like the English word "march."
Is there an established "Indicized" one-word spelling of La Mancha? I see that there is a Persian Wikipedia page on La Mancha that uses a one-word spelling, but I'm not sure that's definitive: El Salvador is apparently written as one word in Persian, but two words in Urdu.
MonsieurGonzalito
Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
I am very much aware of that (thanks to your previous observations in this forum, BTW), but still, I can picture myself pronouncing it either way, and both would be valid. The Spanish "quadrilateral of vowels" is much more permissive.
That said, I would probably pronounce it more like /ə/ most of the times, but that is because of my River Plate accent, which tends to be much more relaxed. Spaniards in general, on the contary, tend to articulate further back in the palate, and "La Mancha" said by most of them would probably sound /lɑː 'mɑːnʧɑː/.
For you, we'll stick with لا منچا. If another Spaniard joins the group and challenges us, we'll give in and go over to لامانچا.
I wonder where Pandit Ratan Nath Sarshar (1846-1943), a renowned Urdu novelist, columnist and editor from Lucknow got لامانشا in his translation خدائی فوجدار of the Spanish masterpiece?
جس کی شمار or جس کا شمار ? Excellent suggestion!
It seems you want to resuscitate مرھیل which won't be a bad idea at all. Rasheed Hasan Khan in his اردو کیسے لکھیں when writing about maxluut sounds represented by do-chashmii he mentions رھ , لھ, مھ and نھ. I for one wasn't aware in مرھیل we have a maxluut he.
In my latest post (# 63) I wanted to use an alternate word for عرصہ and didn't want ti use مُدّت either. I thought I might use جُگ but then decided against it as it seemed to have other connotations. Can you think of a word or words that describe period of time (not زمانہ، وقت) that would be acceptable in Urdu?
(Interesting, in Punjabi, for us a village is a "گراں " graaN and not piND which is the norm)
Would خاندانی شخص have "gentleman" connotations?
marrish
Senior Member
اُردو Urdu
I wasn't clear enough before,
QP SaaHib: La Mancha ke kisii gaa'oN meN jis kaa naam maiN yaad rakhnaa nahiiN chaahtaa, un logoN meN jo khuuNTii meN bhaale, bahut puraanii chamRe kii Dhaal, chharaire mariyal TaTTuu aur phurtiile shikaarii kutte vaale haiN, thoRaa hii 3arsah pahle, ek uuNchii zaat vaale bhale maanas kaa baseraa thaa.
+
Mine: jis kii shumaar un khuuNTii meN bhaale, phaTii puraanii charmii Dhaal, ek ... TaTTuu ba-ma3 .. shikaarii kutte waaloN meN hai.
Gives,
La Mancha ke kisii gaa'oN meN jis kaa naam maiN yaad rakhnaa nahiiN chaahtaa,
thoRaa hii 3arsah pahle, ek uuNchii zaat vaale bhale maanas kaa baseraa thaa
jis kii shumaar [EDIT: jis kii/kaa shumaar] un
khuuNTii meN bhaale, phaTii puraanii charmii Dhaal, ek chharaire mar(h)yal TaTTuu ba-ma3 phurtiile shikaarii kutte waaloN meN
hai.
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I think it's all very well making an attempt to immitate the author's style but one mustn't forget that the language in which the sentence is to be translated in also sounds natural. In Urdu, we do get "lance in shelf" kind of construction (e.g xaakam ba-dahan) but in everyday "saliis" language "nezah ba-taaq" etc is unnecessary. We can have a happy medium between the down to earth and high flown language.
لامنچا کے کسی گاؤں میں جس کا نام ناگفتہ بہ، تھوڑا ہی عرصہ پہلے ایک شریف زادہ جس کا شمار *مچان میں نیزہ، قدیم دَرَقہ، مَشَقّت پیشہ لاغر گھوڑا اور
تُندپا تازی کُتّا رکھنے والوں میں تھا، زندگی بسر کرتا تھا۔
La Mancha ke kisii gaa'oN meN jis kaa naam naa-guftah bih, thoRaa hii 3arsah pahle ek shariif-zaadah jis kaa shumaar machaaN meN nezah, qadiim daraqah, mashaqqat-peshah laaGhar ghoRaa aur tund-paa taazii kuttaa rakhne vaaloN meN thaa, zindagii basar kartaa thaa.
In some village in La Mancha whose name is best left unmentioned, not so long ago lived a nobleman who was amongst those who keep a lance on shelf, an ancient leather shield (adarga). a hardworking skinny horse and a fleet-footed greyhound.
(I have used @marrish SaaHib's suggestion of using "shumaar")
* مچان۔ وہ لکڑیاں یا تختے جو دیوار میں اونچی جگہ سامان وغیرہ کے لئے لگا دیتے ہیں۔ اردو لُغت
نیز ۔۔۔۔۔ ٹانڈ ۔ A shelf projecting from a wall (Fallon)
لامنچا کے کسی گاؤں میں جس کا نام ناگفتہ بہ، تھوڑا ہی عرصہ پہلے ایک شریف زادہ جس کا شمار *مچان میں نیزہ، قدیم دَرَقہ، مَشَقّت پیشہ لاغر گھوڑا اور
تُندپا تازی کُتّا رکھنے والوں میں تھا، زندگی بسر کرتا تھا۔
In some village in La Mancha whose name is best left unmentioned, not so long ago lived a nobleman who was amongst those who keep a lance on shelf, an ancient leather shield (adarga). a hardworking skinny horse and a fleet-footed greyhound.
(I have used @marrish SaaHib's suggestion of using "shumaar")
* مچان۔ وہ لکڑیاں یا تختے جو دیوار میں اونچی جگہ سامان وغیرہ کے لئے لگا دیتے ہیں۔ اردو لُغت
نیز ۔۔۔۔۔ ٹانڈ ۔ A shelf projecting from a wall (Fallon)
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marrish
Senior Member
اُردو Urdu
I've heard both. Platts has it as feminine.^ Sorry marrish SaaHib. I am taking "shumaar" to have a masculine gender. Perhaps we are following different schools of thought.
marrish
Senior Member
اُردو Urdu
It's an important point to keep in mind. Although just for the reason of this thread being based on only one sentence it might be worthwhile to make an attempt at imitating the original word-order it would still be a folly to try this with the rest of the whole book, when it's impossible to know if the next sentence turns out malleable enough.
marrish
Senior Member
اُردو Urdu
Let's not forget that Pandit Ratan Nath Sarshar worked only with some English translations, or renditions at his disposal, so he could have thought that the Spanish place should be transcribed not according to the usual English-to-Urdu phonetics but rather in a more exotic style, like, let's say French (like he might've thought "ch"="sh" spelling extended to Spanish as well (?)). Or he thought of it in the terms of Arabic, which lacks 'ch'. Who knows there was some offensive word in Awadhi with 'ch' but not with 'sh'
Thanks for your appreciation. مرھیل is the spelling used in Sarshaar's rendition itself and only on seeing that was I reminded of another instance of مرھیل I'd seen some other day which had me wonder which one was reflecting the pronunciation better. Unfortunately I didn't take notes. I thought I'd throw this minute matter here like the cat among the pigeons.
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MonsieurGonzalito
Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
And I just realized that no Spanish speaker, regardless of region, would pronounce the "la" in "La Mancha" as anything but a clitic, completely devoid of any "tension". Meaning that the rendering in abjad systems as لا منچا is purely conventional. (I guess the temptation to somehow convey that لا is a separate article word is too great).