Urdu-Hindi: کہ - कि

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sapnachaandni

Senior Member
Persian (فارسی)
urduu bolne vaale dosto,
agar aap is mauzuu ke baare meN vazaahat karnaa chaaheN ki “کہ” aur “کے” ke talaffuz meN kyaa farq hai to kyaa kaheNge?
اردو بولنے والے دوستو، اگر آپ اس موضوع کے بارے میں وضاحت کرنا چاہیں کہ “کہ” اور “کے” کے تلفظ میں کیا فرق ہے تو کیا کہیں گے؟



hindii-bhaashii dosto,
yadi aap is vishay ke baare meN vyaakhyaa karnaa chaaheN ki “कि” aur “की” ke uchchaaran meN kyaa antar hai to kyaa kaheNge?
हिंदी-भाषी दोस्तो, यदि आप इस विषय के बारे में व्याख्या करना चाहें कि “कि” और “की” के उच्चारण में क्या अंतर है तो क्या कहेंगे?

maiN hindii ke “कि” aur “की” ke baare meN is tarah kahuungii ki “कि” meN “इ” ह्रस्व (short) hai aur “की” meN “ई” दीर्घ (long). IPA se darshaanaa chaahuuN to aisaa hogaa:
“कि” --- [ki] or [kɪ]
“की” --- [ki:]


hindii-bhaashii dosto, agar aap se puuchhaa jaa’e ki bolte samay kyaa “कि” aur “की” ke uchchaaran meN ye ह्रस्व-दीर्घ kaa antar sunaa’ii detaa hai ki nahiiN, to aap kyaa kaheNge?

maiN kahuuNgii ki kabhii sunaa’ii detaa hai aur kabhii nahiiN. arthaat, kuchh log dhyaan dete haiN ki “कि” bolte samay “इ” kaa uchchaaran “ई” kii tarah दीर्घ na ho jaa’e, lekin kuchh log dhyaan nahiiN dete aur “कि” ko “की” kii tarah bolte haiN. kyaa aap is baat se sahmat haiN?
 
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  • littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    सपनाचाँदनी जी, मेरे मतानुसार (और अनुभव से) कोई भी मूल हिन्दी भाषी "की" और "कि" में उच्चारण का भेद अवश्य करता है| रहा कि भेद क्या है, यह आप पहले ही जतला चुकी हैं|
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    جی، عمومی طور پر ان دونوں شبدوں میں كوئی ظاہری فرق نہیں ہے، خصوصا جب گام ِ تكلم تیز ہو مگر بعض اوقات بعض لوگ لفظ ِ "كہ كے تلفظ میں ذرا ٹھیرتے ہیں اور "كے" كو تھوڑا کھینچتے ہیں​
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    اور میری طرف سے یہ بات ہے کہ .کہ. اور .کے. کے درمیان وزن کا فرق ہے، یعنی اول الذکر ہلکا ہے جبکہ کے بھاری
    short and long۔
     
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    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    اور میری طرف سے یہ بات ہے کہ .کہ. اور .کے. کے درمیان وزن کا فرق ہے، یعنی اول الذکر ہلکا ہے جبکہ کے بھاری
    short and long۔
    to phir jis tarah hindii meN yahii "short-long" kaa farq कि aur की ke biich meN miltaa hai, urduu meN bhii yahii farq کہ aur کے ke biich meN maujuud hai.

    shukriyaa marrish saahib.
     
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    Chhaatr

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    वैसे मैंने इन दोनों शब्दों के उच्चारण पर अब से पहले कोई विषेश ध्यान नहीं दिया था लेकिन अब जब मैं इसके बारे में सोचता हूँ तो इसी निष्कर्ष पर पहुँचता हूँ कि दोस्तों से बात करते समय बोली की रफ़्तार के कारण दोनों शब्दों के उच्चारण में अंतर सदैव उजागर नहीं हो पाता ।
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    वैसे मैंने इन दोनों शब्दों के उच्चारण पर अब से पहले कोई विषेश ध्यान नहीं दिया था लेकिन अब जब मैं इसके बारे में सोचता हूँ तो इसी निष्कर्ष पर पहुँचता हूँ कि दोस्तों से बात करते समय बोली की रफ़्तार के कारण दोनों शब्दों के उच्चारण में अंतर सदैव उजागर नहीं हो पाता ।
    jii haaN, sahmat huuN Chhaatr jii.

    jaise maiN ne bhii pahle post meN kahaa: yeh antar kabhii sunaa’ii detaa hai aur kabhii sunaa’ii nahiiN detaa; xaas kar ke: “बोली की रफ़्तार के कारण”
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    to phir jis tarah hindii meN yahii "short-long" kaa farq कि aur की ke biich meN miltaa hai, urduu meN bhii yahii farq کہ aur کے ke biich meN maujuud hai.

    shukriyaa marrish saahib.
    lagtaa hae yuuN hii hae jii. par shaayad urduu waalaa farq kuchh ziyaadah hii waaziH hae kyoN kih jab bhii maiN hiNdii suntaa huuN to yih ki kii se alag nahiiN hotaa. phir bhii ho saktaa hae yih mere urduu waale kaanoN kaa masa2lah hae. baat jo bhii ho ma3luum to paRtaa hae kih kyaa ki/kih hae aur kyaa ke/kii, siyaaq-o-sabaaq ke mutaabiq, donoN zabaabnoN meN
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    اور میری طرف سے یہ بات ہے کہ .کہ. اور .کے. کے درمیان وزن کا فرق ہے، یعنی اول الذکر ہلکا ہے جبکہ کے بھاری
    short and long۔​
    یہ فرق بالكل درست ہے جسكی طرف میرا بھی اشارہ تھا لیكن عام گفتگو كے دوران بیشتر یہ فرق ظاہر نہیں ہوتا بلكہ متن كا مفھوم خود اسكی ہدایت كرتا ہے كہ یہ كہ ہے یا كے​
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Originally Posted by sapnachaandni
    to phir jis tarah hindii meN yahii "short-long" kaa farq कि aur की ke biich meN miltaa hai, urduu meN bhii yahii farq کہ aur کے ke biich meN maujuud hai.

    shukriyaa marrish saahib.

    lagtaa hae yuuN hii hae jii. par shaayad urduu waalaa farq kuchh ziyaadah hii waaziH hae kyoN kih jab bhii maiN hiNdii suntaa huuN to yih ki kii se alag nahiiN hotaa. phir bhii ho saktaa hae yih mere urduu waale kaanoN kaa masa2lah hae. baat jo bhii ho ma3luum to paRtaa hae kih kyaa ki/kih hae aur kyaa ke/kii, siyaaq-o-sabaaq ke mutaabiq, donoN zabaabnoN meN
    In normal Urdu speech mostly you can't tell the difference between keh and ke but the context tells you exactly which is applicable. Just adding to what I said above in Urdu.

    BTW, when some people wish to emphasize keh versus ke they even lightly pronounce the 'h' at the end of keh. We have even discussed this in a very old thread. Not everyone uses the vowel length as the difference between the two at all times.
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    marrish saahib aur Faylasoof saahib, ek aur baar shukriyaa.

    to phir jis tarah hindi meN "यह अंतर सदैव उजागर नहीं हो पाता", urduu meN bhii "عام گفتگو كے دوران بیشتر یہ فرق ظاہر نہیں ہوتا".i
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    My view is that the Urdu کہ is neither kih nor ke. I feel it is somewhere between the two.

    As for Hindi ki vs kii, I hear both of them as "kii". Perhaps, it is my ears and not the speakers!

    Please listen to this Ghalib Ghazal beginning with the line "muddat hu'ii hai yaar ko mihmaaN kiye hu'e" by whoever and then fill in the missing word. My request is addressed more to Hindi speakers than Urdu ones, who are possibly less likely to know the actual wording.

    jii DhuuNDtaa hai phir vahii fursat...raat din
    baiThe raheN tasavvur-i-jaanaaN kiye hu'e
     
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    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    marrish saahib aur Faylasoof saahib, ek aur baar shukriyaa.

    to phir jis tarah hindi meN "यह अंतर सदैव उजागर नहीं हो पाता", urduu meN bhii "عام گفتگو كے دوران بیشتر یہ فرق ظاہر نہیں ہوتا".i
    jii nahiiN! is kaa sabab kuchh yeh hae keh aaj kal ke hindii goyaan "keh" kaa tallafuZ "ki" karte haiN lekin urdu goyaan "keh" ko 3aam Taur se ke(h) kahte haiN, goyaa 3aam urduu bolii meN "keh" aur "ke" kaa yaa to farq hii maHsuus nahiiN hotaa yaa farq jo taHriiran maujuud hae Sautii leHaaZ se be-Hadd daqiiq hae!

    yeh sab kahne ke ba3d yeh kahnaa bhii Dharuurii hae keh bahot se urduu goyaan bhii "keh" ko "ki" hii kahte haiN (!), xuSuuSan jo hindostaan meN pale baRhe haiN.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    jii haaN kabhii kabhaar ''h'' kii sadaa de bhii jaatii hae, Faylasoof SaaHib kii baat ko agar duhraa'uuN. yih to hae magar jo hindostaan ke urduugoyaan kaa Haal hae vuh bataane kaa bahut shukriyah janaab. umed yahii hae aap un meN se nahiiN hoN ge!
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    jii haaN kabhii kabhaar ''h'' kii sadaa de bhii jaatii hae, Faylasoof SaaHib kii baat ko agar duhraa'uuN. yih to hae magar jo hindostaan ke urduugoyaan kaa Haal hae vuh bataane kaa bahut shukriyah janaab. umed yahii hae aap un meN se nahiiN hoN ge!
    janaab-e-waalaa chaahe maiN jahaaN rahuuN merii zabaan par "keh" ke siwaa "ki" kabhii nahiiN aayaa, magar "kii" jo ham sab meN mushtarak hae, wird-e-zbaaN hae! aap kii umaid* puurii ho ga'ii!!
    (* alternative to ummaid / umiid / ummiid)
     
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    Chhaatr

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    Mere Urdu zabaan waale dostoN, merii baat kaa Ghalat matlab na nikaalnaa, magar ho sake to is kii vazaaHat zaruur karnaa ki (sorry, keh/kih) jo aap kehte haiN kyaa yeh Haqiiqat hai? MaiN pichhle 10 mahiinoN se Urdu dramas dekh rahaa huuN par mujhe Urdu keh/kih aur Hindi ki meN ko'ii farq nahiiN meHsuus hu'aa.

    mujhe lagtaa hai keh aap "Baal kii xaal" nikaal rahe haiN".


    (You might take this post to be inflammatory but I had to get it off my chest).
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I think you meant to write "mere Urdu zabaan vaale dosto"..a common mistake.

    aap kii posT bi_lkul ishti3aal-aNgez nahiiN. jii haaN, yih ek Haqiiqat hai kih Hindi "ki" aur Urdu kih/keh meN zamiin aasmaan kaa farq hai. jaisaa kih maiN pahle 3arz kaqr chukaa huuN kih aap kaa "ki" mujhe hamaare (aap ke bhii aur hamaare bhii) lafz "kii" ke baraabar lagtaa hai.
     

    Chhaatr

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    Janaab maiN aap kii post samjhaa nahiiN. mujhe vaaqa'ii in 10 mahiinoN meN "keh/kih" aur ki ke biich meN farq nahiiN sunaa'ii diyaa. Lage haath vazaaHat kartaa chaluuN kih meraa ishaarah talaffuz kii taraf hai na keh likhaa'ii kii taraf
     
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    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    Listening to Geo TV news, I've heard variation in the pronunciation of Urdu speakers. Some pronounce kih/keh as 'ke' as Faylasoof mentioned earlier, but others pronounce it 'ki' just as in Hindi.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    janaab-i-3aalii, merii bhii mu'addabaanah guzaarish hai kih bandah Devanagri meN Hindi likhne ke taur-tariiqoN se ba-xuubii vaaqif hai aur meraa ishaarah bhii Hindi ki aur Urdu kih/keh ke taluffuz se vaabastah hai.

    aap ne "dostoN"/"dosto" ke baare meN kuchh nahiiN farmayaa?
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Mere Urdu zabaan waale dostoN, merii baat kaa Ghalat matlab na nikaalnaa, magar ho sake to is kii vazaaHat zaruur karnaa ki (sorry, keh/kih) jo aap kehte haiN kyaa yeh Haqiiqat hai? MaiN pichhle 10 mahiinoN se Urdu dramas dekh rahaa huuN par mujhe Urdu keh/kih aur Hindi ki meN ko'ii farq nahiiN meHsuus hu'aa.

    mujhe lagtaa hai keh aap "Baal kii xaal" nikaal rahe haiN".


    (You might take this post to be inflammatory but I had to get it off my chest).
    No! Not all inflammatory post Chaatrjii !! Perfectly OK to ask these kinds of questions.

    jaanaab, HuDhuur maiN taqriiban puure barr-e-saGhiir ke shumaalii HiSSoN meN ghuum-phir chukaa huuN aur go maiN xud yorap (Europe) meN ka'ii baras se sukuunat paziir huuN, saare mere xaandaan waale ab bhii hindostaan (UP aur bihaar) hii meN pale haiN aur sab hii ko to meN "ki" kahte sunaa, "keh" to shaayad hii, aur xuSuuSan nau-paud ko bilkul hii nahiiN. is kaa maqSad yeh hargiz nahiiN keh hindostaan men ko'ii "keh" nahiiN kahtaa, aur isii tarH ba3Dh afraad ko paakistaan meN maiN ne "keh" nahiiN balke "ki" se qariib-tar kaa talaffuZ isti3maal karte sunaa hae. jii, jab kaan ek lafZ kaa 3aadii ho jaataa hae to alfaafZ ke mutaGhayyar talaffuZ par fuaran dhyaan jaataa hae.

    muxtalif talaffuZ zabaanoN meN
    to milte hii haiN! is par ham ko kyaa ranj-o-miHan ho!
     

    Chhaatr

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    Bahut xuub Faylasoof SaaHib, bajaa farmaate haiN aap. MaiN bhii Sirf yeh hii 3arz kar rahaa thaa keh "keh/kih" utnii tagRii Haqiiqat nahiiN hai jitnii keh 2+2=4 vaGhairah.
     
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    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    My view is that the Urdu کہ is neither kih nor ke. I feel it is somewhere between the two.
    Please listen to this Ghalib Ghazal beginning with the line "muddat hu'ii hai yaar ko mihmaaN kiye hu'e" by whoever and then fill in the missing word. My request is addressed more to Hindi speakers than Urdu ones, who are possibly less likely to know the actual wording.

    jii DhuuNDtaa hai phir vahii fursat...raat din
    baiThe raheN tasavvur-i-jaanaaN kiye hu'e
    Qureshpor saahib, maiN ne ye sun liyaa. Noor Jahaan ne gaayaa thaa:
    jii DhuuNDtaa hai phir vahii fursat [ke]* raat din

    * talaffuz ko sirf IPA se dikhaayaa jaa saktaa hai (Noor Jahaan ne is gaane meN is lafz kaa talaffuz aisaa hii kiyaa hai: [ke])

    ye talaffuz ([ke]) bilkul vahii talaffuz hai jo ham faarsii meN karte haiN, matlab ham faarsii meN is lafz ko Thiik [ke] bolte haiN. ye [e] jo [ke] meN bolaa jaataa hai [e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) se alag hai.
    [e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) taviil musavvitaa (طویل مصوتہ , दीर्घ स्वर) hai lekin [e] taviil (दीर्घ) nahiiN hai.
     
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    Chhaatr

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    Mu3aaf kareN dostoN, meraa iraadah urdu "keh/kih" ko Hindi "ki" se milaa ne kaa kata'ii nahiiN thaa.

    Could be the festivities got the better of me. What I meant to say was that in my last 10 months of Urdu lessons (including watching endless Urdu dramas) I could not spot any difference between oft repeated Urdu "keh/kih" and Hindi "ke" (Please do excuse my earlier "ki").

    Requesting views of Urdu speakers on this post.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Mu3aaf kareN dostoN, meraa iraadah urdu "keh/kih" ko Hindi "ki" se milaa ne kaa kata'ii nahiiN thaa.

    Could be the festivities got the better of me. What I meant to say was that in my last 10 months of Urdu lessons (including watching endless Urdu dramas) I could not spot any difference between oft repeated Urdu "keh/kih" and Hindi "ke" (Please do excuse my earlier "ki").

    Requesting views of Urdu speakers on this post.
    Chaatr SaaHib, I'm trying to think how best to explain this so allow me to put it this way:

    मैं कहना चाहता हूँ कि हिन्दी में हम हमेशा "कि" लिखते हैं, "केह" कभी नहीं, और "कि" और "केह" कहने में फ़र्क़ है |

    maiN kahnaa chaahtaa huuN ki Hindi meN ham hameshaa "ki" likhte haiN, "keh" kabhii nahiiN, aur "ki" aur "keh" kahne meN farq hai |


    As sapnachaandni SaaHibah has indicated the Urdu and Persian [ke] are the same and Urduphones with good and proper elocution would always say [ke].

    So the correct Urdu pronunciation of, say, جو كہ is jo keh (keh = [ke], phonetically), which we write in Hindi as जो कि , and would be pronounced by most as jo ki ( = جو كی, be it a truncated "ye") rather than what we say in Urdu proper as jo keh (i.e.[ke] phonetically).

    I think it has much to do with how we write it in Hindi (कि) means that usually Hindiphones will go for "ki" rather than not keh / [ke], but I'm sure exceptions exist.

    In Urdu we have كہ (keh = [ke], phonetically) but, as I mentioned much earlier above, many in speech do not always distinguish between كہ keh and كے ke ! But I'm sure exceptions exist here too. In fact I try to by lightly pronouncing the 'h' at the end, apart from the truncated 'ye' in كہ keh to the longer on in كے ke. Urduphones with good pronunciation practice would not be heard saying this as "ki", but I've heard this from Urduphones too and it reflects their training.

    Of course I understand what you are trying to say and I might assume you pronounce كہ as "ke(h) = [ke]" in speech but since we all write is as "ki" in Hindi, most people who write / speak Hindi tend to go for the latter ("ki") pronunciation rather than the [ke], and these include many of my relations in India, except those who have been instructed otherwise. So, both how we write (script) and how we are trained determines how we pronounce these just as any other word. Vocal training is esp. important.
     

    Wolverine9

    Senior Member
    American English
    Happy new year to all of you!

    I should mention that ki/keh has a dual etymology. In the meaning 'or' it is of Sanskrit origin, and as a conjunction meaning 'that' it is of Persian origin. It has other meanings too of course but these are perhaps the most common. It is pronounced the same for all the meanings in Hindi. Is there any difference in pronunciation for Urdu, especially with regard to the different etymology?
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Happy new year to all of you!

    I should mention that ki/keh has a dual etymology. In the meaning 'or' it is of Sanskrit origin, and as a conjunction meaning 'that' it is of Persian origin. It has other meanings too of course but these are perhaps the most common. It is pronounced the same for all the meanings in Hindi. Is there any difference in pronunciation for Urdu, especially with regard to the different etymology?
    The Hindi कि ki we are discussing is the same usage (but different pronunciation) as the Urdu (from Persian) كہ keh ([ke] ) = that.

    For "or" (as in either this or that), in Urdu and Colloquial Hindi mostly we use yaa یا / या. So we are talking of two completely different words.

    [Of course you are not referring to our own Indic or. I mean this: اور ओर = side, direction etc., for which we even have a thread!]

    EDIT:

    I just found this in Platts:

    H کی कै kai, or के ke (i.q. ki), conj. Or, either:—kai-kai, Either—or; whether—or;—kai, conj. (Braj.)=ki, q.v.According to him this is pronounced as above: kai (kae) / ke and not ki. But to be honest I've never used it though others may have in this sense.
     
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    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    For "or" (as in either this or that), in Urdu and Colloquial Hindi mostly we use yaa یا / या. So we are talking of two completely different words.
    As far as Hindi is concerned, you are completely wrong: "ki" exists very much as "or" in Hindi. Example: करूँ कि न करूँ (Do I do or not do?). So, do you mean to say that Urdu doesn't use keh/ki in this sense?

    Happy New Year to everyone!
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    As far as Hindi is concerned, you are completely wrong: "ki" exists very much as "or" in Hindi. Example: करूँ कि न करूँ (Do I do or not do?). So, do you mean to say that Urdu doesn't use keh/ki in this sense?

    Happy New Year to everyone!
    Happy New Year to you too with lots of peace and good feelings.
    The reading of F. jii's post has not led me to such a conclusion. He just said that it is yaa mostly but has not negated the existence of ''ki'' in this sense. There is another thread about it too.

    I would say, as far as my personal Urdu is concerned, I would not say ''karuuN ki (kih) nah karuuN''. I would say karuuN yaa nah karuuN, but I would use kih when saying: pataa nahiiN yih karuuN kih nahiiN.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Here is a "celebrated" use of "kih" for the English word "or"...

    vuh jo ham meN tum meN qaraar thaa tumheN yaad ho kih nah yaad ho
    vahii, ya3nii va3dah nibaah kaa, tumheN yaad ho kih nah yaad ho

    Momin (1800-1851)

    In ordinary everyday Urdu speech, "kih" for "or" is not unknown by any stretch of the imagination but the more frequent choice is "yaa".
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Qureshpor saahib, maiN ne ye sun liyaa. Noor Jahaan ne gaayaa thaa:
    jii DhuuNDtaa hai phir vahii fursat [ke]* raat din

    * talaffuz ko sirf IPA se dikhaayaa jaa saktaa hai (Noor Jahaan ne is gaane meN is lafz kaa talaffuz aisaa hii kiyaa hai: [ke])

    ye talaffuz ([ke]) bilkul vahii talaffuz hai jo ham faarsii meN karte haiN, matlab ham faarsii meN is lafz ko Thiik [ke] bolte haiN. ye [e] jo [ke] meN bolaa jaataa hai [e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) se alag hai.
    [e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) taviil musavvitaa (طویل مصوتہ , दीर्घ स्वर) hai lekin [e] taviil (दीर्घ) nahiiN hai.
    muHtaramah, yih maiN pahle 3arz kar chukaa huuN aur xwushii kii baat hae aap kaa iHsaas wahii hae. nannhii sii baat yih kih ham agar urduu likheN to musavvitah likheN ge aur wuh is liye kih yih aaxirii Sadaa taviil musavvitah nahiiN balkih ''short'' hae.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Qureshpor saahib, maiN ne ye sun liyaa. Noor Jahaan ne gaayaa thaa:
    jii DhuuNDtaa hai phir vahii fursat [ke]* raat din

    * talaffuz ko sirf IPA se dikhaayaa jaa saktaa hai (Noor Jahaan ne is gaane meN is lafz kaa talaffuz aisaa hii kiyaa hai: [ke])

    ye talaffuz ([ke]) bilkul vahii talaffuz hai jo ham faarsii meN karte haiN, matlab ham faarsii meN is lafz ko Thiik [ke] bolte haiN. ye [e] jo [ke] meN bolaa jaataa hai [e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) se alag hai.
    [e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) taviil musavvitaa (طویل مصوتہ , दीर्घ स्वर) hai lekin [e] taviil (दीर्घ) nahiiN hai.
    yahii ronaa to ham ro'e jaa rahe haiN kih Urdu کہ aur کے kii aavaazeN yaksaaN nahiiN. shukr hai is baat kaa bi_laaxir Thiik jagah pih nishaanah laga hai!

    aap ko bhii nayaa saal mubaarak ho!
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    [e] ke baare meN ek aur savaal:

    jaise kahaa gayaa, [e] طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर nahiiN hai, lekin [e:] طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर hai.

    [e:] jo طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर hai, misaal ke taur par aise lafzoN meN talaffuz/ uchchaaran kiyaa jaataa hai: “ایک” /“एक” [e:k] , “دینا”/ “देना” [de:na:]

    urduu bolne vaale dosto,
    kyaa aap is baat se ittifaaq karte haiN ki “دردِ دل” ke talaffuz meN vo aavaz jo “درد” aur “دل” ke biich meN talaffuz kii jaatii hai, yahii [e] hai jo طویل مصوتہ nahiiN hai aur “کہ” meN “ک” ke saath bolaa jaataa hai?


    hindii-bhaashii dosto,
    kyaa aap is baat se sahmat haiN ki “दर्द-ए-दिल” ke uchchaaran meN vo aavaaz jo “दर्द” aur “दिल” ke biich meN uchchaarit hotii hai, दीर्घ स्वर nahiiN hai, arthaat jis tarah “ए” kaa uchchaaran “एक” aur “देना” meN दीर्घ hai, “दर्द-ए-दिल” meN दीर्घ nahiiN hai?


    matlab:
    kyaa sab is baat se muttafiq/ sahmat haiN ki “دردِ دل”/ “दर्द-ए-दिल” kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran [dərdedil] hai [dərde:dil] nahiiN?
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    sapnachaandni jii, mujh garib ko to dono hii ek jaise "e" maloom padte hain, jahan tak hindi ka savaal hai. Ek prasiddh gana bhi hai, "dard-e-dil, dard-e-jigar", aur us gaane mein to "e" super-deergh jaan padta hai!
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    dhanyavaad littlepond jii.

    mujhe shak ho gayaa hai ki ye [dərdedil] hai yaa [dərde:dil], isii liye is ke baare meN savaal kiyaa hai. duusre dostoN kii raay kyaa hai?
    bol-chaal meN “دردِ دل”/ “दर्द-ए-दिल” kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran [dərdedil] hai yaa [dərde:dil]?
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    mujh Ghariib ko bhii littlepond jii se ittifaaq hai kyoN kih mere kaan bhii izaafat ko yaa'e majhuul ke baraabar sun_te haiN. shaayad isii liye Urdu tarz-i-taHriir meN "havaa-i-dil" ko "havaae dil" likhaa jaataa hai. merii Haqiir raa'e meN kalaasiikii Farsi ke pesh kii aavaaz jis tarH majhuul vaa'o ban ga'ii hai isii tarH kalaasiikii Farsi kii izaafat, jis kaa saHiiH talaffuz kabhii "i" thaa, yaa-i-majhuul ban ke rah ga'ii hai. mulaaHizah farmaa'iye is laRii kii # post 12

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2187529&highlight=Classical+u+to+o

    mujhe skuul ke bachchoN ke likhe hu'e Urdu meN namuune dekhne kaa ittifaaq hu'aa hai. un meN is qism ke alfaaz ko ba3z bachchoN ne baRii ye se likhaa hai. is kaa matlab yih hu'aa kih vuh bhii is aavaaz ko aisaa hii maHsuus karte haiN.

    aap ab puuchheN gii phir kih, ke kyoN nahiiN. is kii vajh (mere xayaal meN) yih hai kih...kih meN aaxirii aavaaz -i- kii nahiiN samjhii jaatii aur "h" ek qism kii "rukaavaT" hai jo "-i-" ko "e" ban_ne se baaz rakh rahii hai.

    is silsile meN niiche diye ga'e rabt meN # post 4 dekhiye.

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2659398&highlight=Tajik+song
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    [...]EDIT: I just found this in Platts:

    H کی कै kai, or के ke (i.q. ki), conj. Or, either:—kai-kai, Either—or; whether—or;—kai, conj. (Braj.)=ki, q.v.According to him this is pronounced as above: kai (kae) / ke and not ki. But to be honest I've never used it though others may have in this sense.
    This, to my mind seems to be a variation of "kyaa....kyaa" for whether...or.
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    shukriyaa Qureshpor saahib.

    to phir [dərde:dil] hii bolaa jaataa hai [dərdedil] nahiiN.

    vaise is shak kii vajah Dr. gyaan chand jain kii ek baat hai jo us kii ek kitaab meN likhii hu’ii hai (kitaab kaa naam: “لسانی مطالعے”). is meN [e] aur [e:] ke baare meN kuchh kuchh baateN likhii ga’ii haiN aur un dii ga’ii misaaloN meN se jin ke talaffuz IPA se dikhaa’e ga’e haiN, ek misaal ye hai:

    “صنعت براعت الاستہلال” --- [sən-ətebəra:-ətul-istehla:l]

    is misaal meN “صنعت” aur “براعت” ke biich meN jo aavaaz hai usko [e:] se nahiiN balki [e] se dikhaayaa gayaa hai, par baat ye hai ki maiN ne filmoN meN is aavaaz ko [e:] sunaa hai. isii liye mujhe shak hu’aa thaa ki ab ye aavaaz [e] hai yaa [e:].

    Thiik hai, to phir aap kii raay ye hai ki ye aavaaz [e:] hai aur [dərde:dil] bolaa jaataa hai. mujhe bhii aisaa lagtaa hai, aur pataa nahiiN kyoN Dr. gyaan chand ne vaisaa likhaa thaa.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ mere xayaal meN maziid dostoN kii raa'e le kar hii aap ko ko'ii faisala karnaa chaahiye kyoNkih sirf do aadamiyoN kii raa'e Harf-i-aaxir nahiiN ho saktii. Dr. Gyaan Chand ko'ii chhoTii-moTii hastii nahiiN haiN.
     

    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    ^ intizaar hai duusre dostoN kii raay jaanne kaa.

    aisaa bhii mumkin hai ki donoN talaffuz/ uchchaaran maujuud hoN. pataa nahiiN.
     
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    sapnachaandni

    Senior Member
    Persian (فارسی)
    [...] If you wish to transliterate correctly the izaafat on basis of Urdu, it would have to be a special character which is developped to depict a short [e] sound [...]. It is not a long vowel [e] which you can find in ''mere''. [...]
    to phir marrish saahib, aap kii raay ye hai ki urduu meN “دردِ دل”/ “दर्द-ए-दिल” kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran [dərdedil] hai, matlab aap is baat se ittifaaq karte haiN ki “درد”/ "दर्द" aur “دل”/ "दिल" ke biich meN jis aavaaz kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran kiyaa jaataa hai, vo aavaaz [e] hai jo طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर nahiiN hai. kyaa maiN saHiiH/ sahii samajh ga'ii huuN?
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    to phir marrish saahib, aap kii raay ye hai ki urduu meN “دردِ دل”/ “दर्द-ए-दिल” kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran [dərdedil] hai, matlab aap is baat se ittifaaq karte haiN ki “درد”/ "दर्द" aur “دل”/ "दिल" ke biich meN jis aavaaz kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran kiyaa jaataa hai, vo aavaaz [e] hai jo طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर nahiiN hai. kyaa maiN saHiiH/ sahii samajh ga'ii huuN?
    jii haaN mere nazdiik baat kuchh yuuN hii hae.
     

    mundiya

    Senior Member
    Hindi, English, Punjabi
    EDIT: I just found this in Platts:

    H کی कै kai, or के ke (i.q. ki), conj. Or, either:—kai-kai, Either—or; whether—or;—kai, conj. (Braj.)=ki, q.v.According to him this is pronounced as above: kai (kae) / ke and not ki. But to be honest I've never used it though others may have in this sense.
    As Platts indicates, "kai" and "ke" are the forms found in Braj. He refers to the "ki" entry for the standard Hindi and Urdu form. I have always pronounced कि as "ki" and so have others around me as far as I'm aware. I will pay closer attention to see if we pronounce it any other way.

    To account for the Urdu pronunciation, Platts should have written "kě" in addition to "ki". He uses "ě" for the short e sound in others words, so why not this one?
     
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    Chhaatr

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    [e] ke baare meN ek aur savaal:

    jaise kahaa gayaa, [e] طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर nahiiN hai, lekin [e:] طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर hai.

    [e:] jo طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर hai, misaal ke taur par aise lafzoN meN talaffuz/ uchchaaran kiyaa jaataa hai: “ایک” /“एक” [e:k] , “دینا”/ “देना” [de:na:]

    urduu bolne vaale dosto,
    kyaa aap is baat se ittifaaq karte haiN ki “دردِ دل” ke talaffuz meN vo aavaz jo “درد” aur “دل” ke biich meN talaffuz kii jaatii hai, yahii [e] hai jo طویل مصوتہ nahiiN hai aur “کہ” meN “ک” ke saath bolaa jaataa hai?


    hindii-bhaashii dosto,
    kyaa aap is baat se sahmat haiN ki “दर्द-ए-दिल” ke uchchaaran meN vo aavaaz jo “दर्द” aur “दिल” ke biich meN uchchaarit hotii hai, दीर्घ स्वर nahiiN hai, arthaat jis tarah “ए” kaa uchchaaran “एक” aur “देना” meN दीर्घ hai, “दर्द-ए-दिल” meN दीर्घ nahiiN hai?


    matlab:
    kyaa sab is baat se muttafiq/ sahmat haiN ki “دردِ دل”/ “दर्द-ए-दिल” kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran [dərdedil] hai [dərde:dil] nahiiN?
    Sapnachandnijii maiN Hindi meN iskaa ucchaaraNR is tarah karuuNgaa:

    दर्दे दिल

    mujhe aNdaazah hai keh yeh talaffuz Urdu keh Hawaale se durust nahiiN.
     
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