Urdu-Hindi: aa'e hai vs aataa hai

[Qureshpor]

In a recent thread Faylassof SaaHib brought up the topic of "aa'e hai" vs "aataa hai". It appeared to me if this is a topic which is of interest to Faylasoof SaaHib.

Let me start the ball rolling by providing a "conjugation" for these two forms.


maiN aa'uuN huuN
ham aa'eN haiN (Note! Not the same as "ham aa'e haiN"!)

tuu aa'e hai
tum aa'o ho

vuh aa'e hai
vuh aa'eN haiN (Again, not the same as "vuh aa'e haiN")
................................................

maiN aataa huuN
ham aate haiN

tuu aataa hai
tum aate ho

vuh aataa hai
vuh aate haiN

..........................................................................................

Just to connect it with a bit of quality literature...

vuh aa'e* ghar meN hamaare, Khudaa kii qudrat hai
kabhii ham un ko kabhii apne ghar ko dekhte haiN

Ghalib

* aa'e here actually is aa'e haiN = They have come [She has come] and is therefore not linked to the first type of tense. However, some people quote the above couplet as:

vuh aa'eN ghar meN hamaare, Khudaa kii qudrat hai
kabhii ham un ko kabhii apne ghar ko dekhte haiN
......

dekhnaa qismat kih aap apne pih rashk aa jaa'e hai
maiN use dekhuuN, bhalaa kab mujh se dekhaa jaa'e hai

Ghalib

Now, this has the same tense as the first type.

OK, ladies and gents. Let's have your views on the two forms! How do they relate to each other?

 

[souminwé]

I don't think this form exists (maiM aauuM huuM definitely does not exist). Aae hai is not the "subjunctive" form of the verb, but simply aaya agreeing with a masculine plural.

The chart should be something like:

aaya hai, aae haiM, aayi hai, aayiM haiM

Past subjunctive would be aaya ho, I believe.

 

[Qureshpor]

I don't think this form exists (maiM aauuM huuM definitely does not exist).

Oh yes it does! Otherwise, why would I have bothered to start this thread?

Aae hai is not the "subjunctive" form of the verb, but simply aaya agreeing with a masculine plural.

No, it is neither the former nor the latter!

The chart should be something like:

aaya hai, aae haiM, aayi hai, aayiM haiM

No, the above is a totally seperate tense form.Let's hope that others join in with the discussion and then all will be revealed!

Past subjunctive would be aaya ho, I believe.

 

[amiramir]

Hi,

I have never in my life heard of such a verb form. In the hopes that I could shed some light on it, I poured over all my grammar books, but can't find a trace of it. Sorry.

 

[Qureshpor]

Hi,

I have never in my life heard of such a verb form. In the hopes that I could shed some light on it, I poured over all my grammar books, but can't find a trace of it. Sorry.

May I then respectfully suggest that you have the wrong grammar books!

جو کوئی آوے ہے نزدیک ہی بیٹھے ہے ترے
ہم کہاں تک ترے پہلو سے سرکتے جاویں

jo ko'ii aave hai nazdiik hii baiThe hai tire
ham kahaaN tak tire pahluu se sarakte jaaveN

Miir Hassan Dehlavii

Everyone who comes in, wants to sit close by you!
How long must I keep shifting away from your side?

 

[amiramir]

Hi,

I'm not being combative. If there's a tense I haven't heard of, I would love to know about it. I'm just saying that I've poured over all my grammar books, and it's definitely not there. (Also while not a fluent speaker, I have heard Hindustani my whole life and have never come across it-- not that this proves anything). But I am very happy to be proven wrong.

The only thing I'd say is the Mir Hasan Delhavi was a contemporary of Khusrao, if I'm not mistaken. Which places them in the 1300s. Perhaps 'main aaun hun' and the associated conjugations are an obsolete/dialectical form.

I would be thrilled if someone told me they used 'main aaun hun' on a daily basis. It's what keeps life interesting.

 

[Qureshpor]

Hi,

I'm not being combative. If there's a tense I haven't heard of, I would love to know about it. I'm just saying that I've poured over all my grammar books, and it's definitely not there. (Also while not a fluent speaker, I have heard Hindustani my whole life and have never come across it-- not that this proves anything). But I am very happy to be proven wrong.

The only thing I'd say is the Mir Hasan Delhavi was a contemporary of Khusrao, if I'm not mistaken. Which places them in the 1300s. Perhaps 'main aaun hun' and the associated conjugations are an obsolete/dialectical form.

I would be thrilled if someone told me they used 'main aaun hun' on a daily basis. It's what keeps life interesting.

amiramir SaaHib. I don't think anyone has suggested that this tense is still used in daily life within the modern language but at the same time I do not believe it is totally obsolete either. As you have put it, it is still quoted in "dialectical" dialogue in quality Urdu prose. I've typed these verb forms on the net and have found plenty of examples including those in the modern day writings of Mumtaz Mufti and Intizar Hussain.

Mir Hassan Dehlavi's period was 1736/7-1786 and his language is remarkably "modern". But, one must not assume that this verb is not found in poetry dated after him. Indeed it is. Some of it, say Faraz, is perhaps written not so much as to express that it is modern usage, but to give the poet's work a feel of "antiquity" perhaps.

Regarding grammar books, I believe you will find this tense (and one or two others which might surprise you!) in John.T.Platts's "A Grammar of the Hindustani or Urdu Language", first published in London in 1873.

 

[amiramir]

Hi,

Cool. Thank you for the info. I didn't know any of that. My urdu poetry reading skills are sadly quite lacking...

All the best,
A

 

[Qureshpor]

Hi,

Cool. Thank you for the info. I didn't know any of that. My urdu poetry reading skills are sadly quite lacking...

All the best,
A

Here are a few more examples.

First person singular

is qadar hai shauq nazzaare se apne yaar ko
ruu ba-ruu dekhuuN huuN us ke paa ba-pahluu aa'ina

Sauda

First person plural and Second person singular

I have not been able to find any examples.

Second Person plural

daaman pih ko'ii chhiiNT nah Khanjar pih ko'ii daaGh
tum qatl karo ho kih karaamaat karo ho!

Kaleem 'Aziz

naa-Haq ham majbuuroN par yih tuhmat hai muKhtaarii kii
chaahte haiN so aap kareN haiN ham ko 3ibas badnaam kiyaa

Mir

Third person singular

dauRe hai phir har ek gul-o-laalah par Khayaal
sad gulistaaN nigaah kaa saamaaN kiye hu'e

Ghalib

Third person plural

muNh ko saaqii ke yuuN vuh dekheN haiN
aag se juuN jale ko seNkeN haiN

Sauda

By the way, no one as yet has come up with any explanations behind the difference between "aa'e hai" and "aataa hai" forms. And just to throw a hammer in the works, take a look at the couplet below.

jo kuchh puuchhe thaa ko'ii gaah-o-begaah
javaab us ko vuh deve thaa bah ikraah

Sauda

 

[Qureshpor]

First person plural and Second person singular

I have not been able to find any examples.

Can anyone fill this gap?

 

[Faylasoof]

Can anyone fill this gap?

When I have time to go through this obsolete usage, yes! Good fun but not high on my list!

 

[Arbish Ali]

Some of it, say Faraz, is perhaps written not so much as to express that it is modern usage, but to give the poet's work a feel of "antiquity" perhaps.

dekhnaa qismat kih aap apne pih rashk aa jaa'e hai
maiN use dekhuuN, bhalaa kab mujh se dekhaa jaa'e hai

اس شعر میں جائے ہے اس لیے آیا کہ جاتا ہے ہوتا تو الف گر جاتا جو معیوب ہے۔

jo ko'ii aave hai nazdiik hii baiThe hai tire
ham kahaaN tak tire pahluu se sarakte jaaveN

اس میں آتا ہے ہوتا تو الف گر جاتا جو معیوب ہے، اور بیٹھتا ہے سے مصرع بے وزن ہو جاتا۔

is qadar hai shauq nazzaare se apne yaar ko
ruu ba-ruu dekhuuN huuN us ke paa ba-pahluu aa'ina

اس میں دیکھتا ہوں ہوتا تو مصرع بے وزن ہو جاتا۔

daaman pih ko'ii chhiiNT nah Khanjar pih ko'ii daaGh
tum qatl karo ho kih karaamaat karo ho!

اس میں کرتے ہو ہوتا تو مصرع بے وزن ہو جاتا۔

naa-Haq ham majbuuroN par yih tuhmat hai muKhtaarii kii
chaahte haiN so aap kareN haiN ham ko 3ibas badnaam kiyaa

اس میں کرتے ہیں ہوتا تو مصرع بے وزن ہو جاتا۔

dauRe hai phir har ek gul-o-laalah par Khayaal
sad gulistaaN nigaah kaa saamaaN kiye hu'e

اس میں دوڑتا ہے ہوتا تو مصرع بے وزن ہو جاتا۔

muNh ko saaqii ke yuuN vuh dekheN haiN
aag se juuN jale ko seNkeN haiN

اس میں دیکھتے ہیں ہوتا تو ی گرتی جو معیوب اور روانی میں حائل ہے۔

jo kuchh puuchhe thaa ko'ii gaah-o-begaah
javaab us ko vuh deve thaa bah ikraah

اس میں پوچھتا تھا ہونے سے مصرع بے وزن ہو جاتا۔ دوسرے مصرعے میں دیتا تھا سے مصرع وزن میں تھا مگر پوچھے تھا کہ مناسبت سے دیوے تھا آیا ہے۔