Urdu/Hindi: baahar/baahir/bahaar

Qureshpor

Senior Member
Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
All of us would agree that the word in question is "baahar" (outside) which one hears being pronounced as "baahir". But, this is not so bad I suppose. Have you come across the pronunication "bahaar"!?
 
  • Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Just out of curiosity, did you hear the third variant in a cooking show?
    Well, I have heard the third pronunciation on a number of occasions but I can't pin point the speakers. However, it was Jaya Bachchan using this pronunciation in a 1983 BBC interview which I saw today and it was this that became the catalyst for starting this thread.
     

    Billaa

    New Member
    Urdu/Punjabi
    Well, I have heard the third pronunciation on a number of occasions but I can't pin point the speakers. However, it was Jaya Bachchan using this pronunciation in a 1983 BBC interview which I saw today and it was this that became the catalyst for starting this thread.
    Oh, in fact, I just heard 'bahaar' about an hour ago on a Pakistani cooking show for the first time. To be precise, it was different from bahaar (بہار/Spring), but the second vowel was definitely longer than the first.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I believe it is nothing new, here is what Platts has to tell us about it:

    H
    بہار भार bhār, adj. Corr. of bāhir or bāhar, q.v.

    Also the version baahir is somewhat closer to its predecessor (contains an ''i'').
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I believe it is nothing new, here is what Platts has to tell us about it:

    H بہار भार bhār, adj. Corr. of bāhir or bāhar, q.v.

    Also the version baahir is somewhat closer to its predecessor (contains an ''i'').

    par baadhaaho... this is "bhaar" not "bahaar"!

    Regarding your second point, yes Platts gives "baahir" as the first entry. Another preconception shattered! What's the world coming to?
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    par baadhaaho... this is "bhaar" not "bahaar"!

    Regarding your second point, yes Platts gives "baahir" as the first entry. Another preconception shattered! What's the world coming to?
    Yes, it is not ''bahaar'' in nagari but it is so in Urdu!

    Sarkaar, there is no much difference between the two, as per my taste. Then, however he puts baahir at the first place, still he goes on using baahar all the time in the definition. So the mystery is to be solved yet...
     

    tonyspeed

    Senior Member
    English & Creole - Jamaica
    Well, I have heard the third pronunciation on a number of occasions but I can't pin point the speakers. However, it was Jaya Bachchan using this pronunciation in a 1983 BBC interview which I saw today and it was this that became the catalyst for starting this thread.
    "Jaya Bhaduri was born in a Hindu Bengali family to Indira and Taroon Kumar Bhaduri, writer, journalist and stage artist in Jabalpur. She studied in St. Joseph's Convent School, Bhopal."

    Could her upbringing in Madya Pradesh have anything to do with this pronunciation difference?
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    All of us would agree that the word in question is "baahar" (outside) which one hears being pronounced as "baahir". But, this is not so bad I suppose. Have you come across the pronunication "bahaar"!?
    Oh yes! Lots of times in Lahore (laa-haur), Islamabad and even Karachi. Almost all the time from Punjabis. In fact many of my Punjabi friends say this.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Oh yes! Lots of times in Lahore (laa-haur), Islamabad and even Karachi. Almost all the time from Punjabis. In fact many of my Punjabi friends say this.
    Faylasoof SaaHib, I'll bet they are not producing the ''h'' when speaking like this.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    Generalizations (not at all representative of all individuals/groups/languages, neither an attempt to stereotype...): pronunciation could depend on a variety of factors including, but not limited to: education level, family members' pronunciations, location, etc. etc.

    Urdu speaking (and/or those who speak Urdu "properly") baahar or sometimes baahir

    Punjabi influenced: ba'ar (with a very, very slight h, or perhaps more like a dull 'ain________but this again depends on areas...); or just baahir/baahar

    Pashto influenced: baa-ar or baa-ir (with the h seeming absent, but again not necessarily...); or just baahir/baahar

    Sindhi influenced: baa-er, baa-her (again not necessarily); or just baahir/baahar

    Probably Hyderabaadi or Gujraati or some other part....: baahir (again not necessarily); or just baahar

    This is the first time hearing bahaar! Is it like the same bahaar as in: khizaaN naheeN bahaar hooN, bahaar ka nishaan hooN...? Interesting!
     

    JaiHind

    Senior Member
    India - Hindi
    All of us would agree that the word in question is "baahar" (outside) which one hears being pronounced as "baahir". But, this is not so bad I suppose. Have you come across the pronunication "bahaar"!?
    If it is meant to mean "outside", it should always be pronounced as "baahar". "bahaar" or "baahir" are both wrong pronunciations of this word.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    My understanding is that "bahaar" is not restricted to Punjabi speakers as Jaya Bachchan's example clearly shows. I do find it strange though, since the Punjabi "baahr" (h for tone) is nothing like "bahaar". But languages work in weird and wonderful ways!
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Originally Posted by BelligerentPacifist
    Although we use baahar, I've known people who say baahir.
    baahir is quite common in at least eastern UP!
    As the question of baahar vs. baahir once again came up in this thread, I thought I’d add a bit more here on this.

    Although baahir is used quite commonly, we don’t consider this as standard Urdu pronunciation. It is always baahar for us!

    The only place I can think of at the moment where a baahir-related term appears in Urdu is in the term saadaat-e-baahirah which is often mutilated in speech to saadaat baarhaa / saadaat baahraa / saadaat-e-baaraa (Saadat-e-Bara) etc. All wrong!

    Should be سادات باہرہ saadaat-e-baahirah (= The Glittering / Dazzling Syeds) where the term baahirah is from the Arabic root b-h-r (bahara) -> baahir باهر = dazzling / brilliant / splendid. These days this term refers also to an area near Muzaffarnagar, western UP.

    The Syed Brothers who became the King-Makers of the mid-Mughal period were from this clan.
     

    BP.

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    ...
    The only place I can think of at the moment where a baahir-related term appears in Urdu is in the term saadaat-e-baahirah which is often mutilated in speech to saadaat baarhaa / saadaat baahraa / saadaat-e-baaraa (Saadat-e-Bara) etc. All wrong!

    Should be سادات باہرہ saadaat-e-baahirah (= The Glittering / Dazzling Syeds) where the term baahirah is from the Arabic root b-h-r (bahara) -> baahir باهر = dazzling / brilliant / splendid. These days this term refers also to an area near Muzaffarnagar, western UP...
    And I was told by one that he was from saadaate baaraaN! I'm sure they did not wash down with the rain!
    But they were here more than half a millennium before we were, and the pronunciation has had ample time to be, as you put, mutilated.
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    All of us would agree that the word in question is "baahar" (outside) which one hears being pronounced as "baahir". But, this is not so bad I suppose. Have you come across the pronunication "bahaar"!?
    I have heard the third one sometimes but never the second one (baahir)!
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I have heard the third one sometimes but never the second one (baahir)!
    Apart from hearing baahir instead of what we always say, i.e. baahar, in both India and Pakistan, I just looked up Standard 20th Century Urdu-English dictionary (Publiishers: Educational Publishing House, Delhi, India) and was surprised to see baahir listed but not baahar!! Dictionary entry: baahir (colloq. baahar): Outside ....

    Platts has both but seems to prefer baahar:
    H باهر बाहिर bāhir, बाहर bāhar [S. वहिस्, वहिर्], adv. & postposn. (governing gen., -ke, or abl., -se), Outside, exterior; externally, outward; out, out of; beyond, exceeding; beyond the effect or influence (of, -se); without, abroad, away;—intj. Out! away!:—bāhar-bhītar, s.m. Outside and inside; ingress and egress; going out, visiting;—adv. In and out; within and without:—bāhar jānā, v.n. To go out; to go away or on a journey:—bāhar ....
     
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