Urdu, Hindi [Braj]: [possessive} + jagaae

MonsieurGonzalito

Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
Friends,

There is one more questionI have about this "Jaag Rahii" song.
Then I am done, promise :) .
For context, the song is about a woman staying awake for the sake of her beloved. It is sung mostly from the female point of view, except for a short male counterpart, where the man says that he is also suffering and he acknowledges "her staying awake".

The woman says:
jaag rahii maiN to piyaa ki(h) jagaae

which I was ready to translate as:
I stay awake, for my beloved keeps me awake

But when the man aswers, he says:
jaag rahii hai tuu mere jagaae

... which invalidates my previous translation, because "jagaae" is being used nominally, and one speaks about "piyaa kii jagaae", "mere jagaae", etc.

So, my question is: what kind of grammatical construction is this? [ke/possessive] + [plural past participle]?
What would be the proper way to translate the above two lines?

Plese orient me.
Thanks in advance.
 
  • Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    جاگ رہی میں تو پیا کے جگائے = جاگ رہی میں تو پیا کے جگانے پر

    - پیا کی جگائی/ستائی/وغیرہ = جگائی ہوئی/ستائی ہوئی/وغیرہ

    بھلائے نہ بھولے = بھلانے پر بھی نہ بھولے
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    مذکّر (برائے موازنہ):

    جاگ رہا میں تو سجنی کے جگائے

    - جاگ رہا میں تو سجنی کا جگایا
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    jaag rahii maiN to piyaa ki(h) jagaae

    which I was ready to translate as:
    I stay awake, for my beloved keeps me awake

    By the way, one reason your proposed reading isn't possible is because ki(h) can't be placed arbitrarily in the subordinate clause it heads. It must precede that clause. This is one of the ways that word order of the language under discussion isn't completely free. For example, you can say
    maiN jaantaa huuN ki wo aaegaa​
    I know that he will come​

    but moving the ki(h) into the subordinate clause is impossible:
    *maiN jaantaa huuN wo ki aaegaa​
    *maiN jaantaa huuN wo aaegaa ki​

    one speaks about "piyaa kii jagaae", "mere jagaae", etc

    Presumably just a typo: it should be piyaa ke jagaae.

    So, my question is: what kind of grammatical construction is this? [ke/possessive] + [plural past participle]?

    Genitives are used to mark agents of transitive past participles somewhat generally. For example,
    merii kahii huii baat yaad rakh.​
    Remember what I said (= Remember the thing that was said by me)​

    In the lyrics, all that's happening is that the genitive plus oblique (not plural, I'd say) past participle is being used adverbially, as in:
    What would be the proper way to translate the above two lines?

    I am awake, awoken by my beloved
    You are awake, awoken by me
     

    MonsieurGonzalito

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Argentina
    جاگ رہا میں تو سجنی کے جگائے

    - جاگ رہا میں تو سجنی کا جگایا
    the genitive plus oblique (not plural, I'd say)
    This means that the participle "apt to be used + genitive to convey agency" can either be a generic oblique singular or agree in gender and number with the agent?




    بھلائے نہ بھولے = بھلانے پر بھی نہ بھولے
    I am sorry, I don't understand the relevance of this.
    Does mean that the poem is also using the alternance between a verb and its causative to indicate difficulty?
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    This means that the participle "apt to be used + genitive to convey agency" can either be a generic oblique singular or agree in gender and number with the agent?

    Maybe...? I find it easier to think about syntax using prose examples, so let me propose a prose sentence using a similar construction.

    wo mere bulaa'e nahiiN aane waalaa [lekin tum bulaa'o to shaayad aa bhii jaa'e].​
    He won't come if I ask him [but he might if you ask].​

    This sentence has the same oblique participial adjunct with a genitive agent that occurs in the OP. The question you're asking, if I understand correctly, is if the following would also be acceptable:

    ?wo meraa bulaayaa nahiiN aane waalaa...​

    I've prefixed it with a question mark because I don't know. It sounds a bit strange to me, but I'm having trouble passing a definitive judgment. What do others think...?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ?wo meraa bulaayaa nahiiN aane waalaa...

    I've prefixed it with a question mark because I don't know. It sounds a bit strange to me, but I'm having trouble passing a definitive judgment. What do others think...?
    If you mean "vuh [jo]meraa bulaayaa [hu'aa] [hai] nahiiN aane vaalaa.", then it is fine.
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    MonsieurGonzalito said:
    I am sorry, I don't understand the relevance of this.
    Does mean that the poem is also using the alternance between a verb and its causative to indicate difficulty?
    No. The purpose of giving that example was to show the function of the -e form. (جگائے - جگانے پر؛ بھلائے - بھلانے پر؛ بلائے - بلانے پر)
     
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