Urdu, Hindi: have been forgotten

MonsieurGonzalito

MonsieurGonzalito

Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
Friends,


If I want to say that something "has been forgotten", using the passive voice in order not to specify by whom, can I say:

1.puraane saare tariiqe bhuul jaae gae

or I have to say simply:

2.puraane saare tariiqe bhuul gae

And if #2, why is that? bhuul jaanaa doesn't lend itself to be passivated, and things idiomatically "go iforgotten" rather than really "being forgotten"?

Thanks in advance.
 
    • I think your first example has two participles of the same verb in different tenses (jae and gae are both from jaanaa)? That's why that doesn't work, IMO, unless I'm reading your transliteration incorrectly.

    saare puraane tariqe bhule gaye hain

    All the old ways have been forgotten
     
    Sorry, my question wasn't clear. I want to passivate bhuul jaanaa, not bhuulnaa.

    bhuule gaae (haiN) would be the past passive voice of bhuulnaa alright, but not of bhuul jaanaa.

    And I would think that, in order to solve the 2nd one, we do need 2 forms of jaanaa.
    (Unless there is some rule that forbids passivating verbs already reinforced by jaanaa).

    See the last paragraph here
     
    Thanks, that helps.

    So this is the passage you're picking up from?

    @aevynn said:
    It isn't fossilized with this gender/number marking --- or at least, not in "passive" / "incapacitative" sentences of type (2). For example, in Rahi Masoom Raza's dil ek saadaa kaagaz, one finds the sentence, "... ye(h) baat bhuul jaayii jaaye yaa na(h) bhuulii jaaye" (ie, "... should this be forgotten or not," where "bhuul jaayii jaaye" is the feminine passive subjunctive of bhuul jaanaa and "bhuulii jaaye" is the feminine passive subjunctive of bhuulnaa).
    Click to expand...


    I do think what I said answers the question of how to put something in the passive voice ("has been forgotten" in the OP), but it seems you're trying to figure out how to use a passive voice, subjunctive construction of 'bhul jaana'? I fear the whole thing is above my pay grade, though I'll read the responses with interest! ;)
     
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    I don't think it makes sense for "bhool jaana" to have a passive form.

    You can append auxiliaries to passive verbs (e.g. "toRnaa" -> "toRaa jaanaa" -> "toRaa jaa saktaa hai"). But the passive verb forms its own inseperable unit. @Jashn - do you have a link to the quoted thread, I'm curious what the context of the discussion is.

    To answer your original question, I'd probably say either "bhool gaye haiN" or "bhoolaaye gaye haiN" depending on context.
     
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    The verb most prolific by far with this construction seems to be le jaanaa in the sense of "to carry (away)":

    buddh pratimaa bhaaray se churaa kar, videsh le jaaii gaii = "Budhaa's statue, having been stolen, was carried abroad".


    Here is another, from Rekhta:

    parda(h) girte hii, sab bhuul jaayaa jaataa hai
    پردہ گرتے ہی سب بھول جایا جاتا ہے
    "Just fallen the curtain, all is forgotten"



    _______________________________________
    EDIT: add example
     
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    It would seem that, with the possible exception of le jaanaa plus the odd literary example here and there for other verbs, speakers generally avoid passivating verbs augmented with jaanaa, and choose other ways to express the idea instead.
     
    Hi @Pokeflute, the post that MonsieurGonzalito linked to can be found here.

    Regarding your last post, @MonsieurGonzalito, and continuing Pokeflute's post, bhul jaana is a compound verb, and one of the functions of adding jaana to bhulna is to add a sense of completion/finality. So if something is in the passive voice, it's already done, so it would seem redundant to use bhul jaana in the passive as the passive itself indicates completion/finality. That would be my non-expert theory as to why bhul jaana is not usually then used in the passive voice, FWIW. 🙂
     
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    MonsieurGonzalito said:
    speakers generally avoid passivating verbs augmented with jaanaa, and choose other ways to express the idea instead.
    Click to expand...

    Isn't it hard in any language to make a verb passive when it is intransitive? Let's take English itself. How do you make passive of "I am going"?

    @Jashn jii, I don't think this has anything to do with "finality." After all, there is nothing final in "voh mujhe bhuule jaa rahaa hai."
     
    littlepond said:
    @Jashn jii, I don't think this has anything to do with "finality." After all, there is nothing final in "voh mujhe bhuule jaa rahaa hai."
    Click to expand...
    Your example is a compound verb, @littlepond ji, but I was referring to compound verbs of this specific type. Sorry if I didn't express that clearly enough. 😉

    There's a difference between
    vo bhul gayaa
    (where bhul jaana is the specific type of compound verb I'm talking about, and because of the type of compound it is, the 'bhul' part is invariable)
    and your example, where absolutely, there is no finality (it's in the present continuous after all, and the 'bhul', by contrast to my example in this post, also inflects).

    At least, that's my understanding... 🙂
     
    MonsieurGonzalito said:
    Friends,


    If I want to say that something "has been forgotten", using the passive voice in order not to specify by whom, can I say:

    1.puraane saare tariiqe bhuul jaae gae

    or I have to say simply:

    2.puraane saare tariiqe bhuul gae

    And if #2, why is that? bhuul jaanaa doesn't lend itself to be passivated, and things idiomatically "go iforgotten" rather than really "being forgotten"?

    Thanks in advance.
    Click to expand...
    I am afraid, it is not as simple this. In Urdu and Hindi, the passive voice is used quite rarely. Hindi has the “dvaaraa” construction and the equivalent Urdu construction is not favoured at all.

    Sometimes, through natural evolution of languages, the “smaller currency” is taken over by “bigger currency”. For Urdu and Hindi, bhuul jaanaa is more the “default” choice than the smaller currency bhuulnaa. There is nothing passive about bhuul jaanaa. Both are intransitive but the one with jaanaa is also

    First stage is: bhuulnaa to bhuul jaanaa

    pardah girte hii sab bhuul jaataa hai

    Remember the subject is mentioned and is “sab” (everything/all)

    As soon as the curtain drops, everything is forgotten (one off event).

    Second stage: bhuul jaanaa to bhuul jaayaa jaanaa

    pardah girte hii sab bhuul jaayaa jaataa hai

    As soon as the curtain drops, everything is forgotten (habitually).

    Think of bhuulnaa as marnaa and bhuul jaanaa as mar jaanaa

    marnaa to mar jaanaa - to die

    maarnaa/ maar denaa - to kill

    maaraa jaanaa/ maar diyaa jaanaa - to be killed

    bhuulnaa/ bhuul jaanaa - to foget

    bhulaanaa/ bhulaa denaa - to forget (transitive)

    bhuulaa jaanaa / bhulaa diyaa jaanaa - to be forgotten (passive- it seems “bhuulaa jaanaa doesn’t exist)


    So…

    saare puraane tariiqe bhulaa diye ga’e haiN

    All the old methods have been forgotten.

    I hope all this makes sense. Not easy on the phone.
     
    MonsieurGonzalito said:
    The verb most prolific by far with this construction seems to be le jaanaa in the sense of "to carry (away)":

    buddh pratimaa bhaaray se churaa kar, videsh le jaaii gaii = "Budhaa's statue, having been stolen, was carried abroad".


    Here is another, from Rekhta:

    parda(h) girte hii, sab bhuul jaayaa jaataa hai
    پردہ گرتے ہی سب بھول جایا جاتا ہے
    "Just fallen the curtain, all is forgotten"



    _______________________________________
    EDIT: add example
    Click to expand...
    lenaa to take
    le jaanaa to take away

    le jaayaa jaanaa to be taken away

    kaalii devii kii muurtii bhaarat se churaa kar iNglistaan le jaa’ii ga’ii.

    After stealing the goddess Kali’s statue from India it was taken to England.
     
    littlepond said:
    Isn't it hard in any language to make a verb passive when it is intransitive? Let's take English itself. How do you make passive of "I am going"?

    @Jashn jii, I don't think this has anything to do with "finality." After all, there is nothing final in "voh mujhe bhuule jaa rahaa hai."
    Click to expand...
    bhuul jaanaa and bhuule jaanaa convey two separate concepts altogether.
     
    Qureshpor said:
    bhuul jaanaa and bhuule jaanaa convey two separate concepts altogether.
    Click to expand...

    Really?

    "ae laRke! bhuul jaa mujhe!" - O boy! Forget me!
    "voh mujhe bhuul gayaa hai" - He has forgotten me
    "voh mujhe din-ba-din bhuule jaa rahaa hai/bhuultaa chalaa jaa rahaa hai" - Day by day, he is forgetting me more and more

    I see different time implications, but I don't see different concepts.
     
    littlepond said:
    Really?

    "ae laRke! bhuul jaa mujhe!" - O boy! Forget me!
    "voh mujhe bhuul gayaa hai" - He has forgotten me
    "voh mujhe din-ba-din bhuule jaa rahaa hai/bhuultaa chalaa jaa rahaa hai" - Day by day, he is forgetting me more and more

    I see different time implications, but I don't see different concepts.
    Click to expand...
    Your first example and second example simply convey the act of forgetting, instantly and over a period of time respectively. They are both formed from the root of the verb bhuul with jaanaa to impart the completive aspect.

    Your third example is the oblique past participle with jaanaa. Here the jaanaa provides the durative/ continuative aspect.
     
    Qureshpor said:
    Your third example is the oblique past participle with jaanaa. Here the jaanaa provides the durative/ continuative aspect.
    Click to expand...

    I would say that it is the raihnaa which is providing the durative aspect: I could also say "voh mujhe bhuul rahaa hai," and the time continuation is still there--because of raihnaa. The addition of "jaanaa" simply "softens" the sentence or makes it seem as if the time is going by slowly (and hence, the softening): "voh mujhe bhuul rahaa hai" is very matter-of-fact and almost harsh (and even aggressive, if context allows).

    I don't see any qualitative difference in the "bhuul jaanaa" part in all the three sentences.
     
    littlepond said:
    I would say that it is the raihnaa which is providing the durative aspect: I could also say "voh mujhe bhuul rahaa hai," and the time continuation is still there--because of raihnaa. The addition of "jaanaa" simply "softens" the sentence or makes it seem as if the time is going by slowly (and hence, the softening): "voh mujhe bhuul rahaa hai" is very matter-of-fact and almost harsh (and even aggressive, if context allows).

    I don't see any qualitative difference in the "bhuul jaanaa" part in all the three sentences.
    Click to expand...
    There is a lot of difference between:

    vuh gaa rahaa hai

    vuh gaa’e jaa rahaa hai
     
    Jashn said:
    I think your first example has two participles of the same verb in different tenses (jae and gae are both from jaanaa)? That's why that doesn't work, IMO, unless I'm reading your transliteration incorrectly.

    saare puraane tariqe bhule gaye hain

    All the old ways have been forgotten
    Click to expand...
    Actually, it should be: Saare tareeke bhule Jaa chuke hain.
     
    Wouldn't that have a different meaning, though?

    saare puraane tariqe bhule gaye hain
    All the old ways have been forgotten
    vs.
    Saare tareeke bhule jaa chuke hain
    All the old ways have already been forgotten.

    Or have I misunderstood?
     
    Jashn said:
    Wouldn't that have a different meaning, though?

    saare puraane tariqe bhule gaye hain
    All the old ways have been forgotten
    vs.
    Saare tareeke bhule jaa chuke hain
    All the old ways have already been forgotten.

    Or have I misunderstood?
    Click to expand...
    You are mistaken. "Already" means "pehle hi" in hindi. So,

    All the old ways have been forgotten: Saare puraane tareeke bhule jaa chuke hain.

    All the old ways have already been forgotten:
    Saare purane tareeke pehle hi bhule jaa chuke hain.

    "Bhule gaye hain"     is not the correct usage. However, "Iss baar Olympics me 4 khel khele gaye hain." and "Sadak haadse me 4 log maare gaye hain." are both correct.
     
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