Urdu / Hindi : ma'na

Cilquiestsuens

Senior Member
French
Salaam to all,

This word, Mane.gif is according to me a very much used one throughout the Hindi / Urdu speaking word ...

I have however heard it pronounced in many different ways : ma'naa, ma'ne (even in singular) and ma'nii,even as ma'enaa, ma'ene, ma'enii (This last one by punjabi native speakers)

My question : what is according to you the standard pronounciation in

1.Urdu =
2. Hindi =
3. Punjabi =
 
  • panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Very good question. While on AIIS in Lucknow, we had trouble deciding for ourselves. All of our teachers said it a different way. I think this is what we decided:

    1. Urdu= ma'nee
    2. Hindi= ma'naa

    I'm confusing myself on how I would say it in Panjabi, so I'll get back to you.
     

    Illuminatus

    Senior Member
    USA
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    I still haven't understood which word you are talking about. Could you please use it in a sentence?
     

    Illuminatus

    Senior Member
    USA
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    Oh that!

    Mane? मने? is the standard word(?) children use to ask the meaning of a word.

    मम्मी, एरो प्लेन मने क्या होता है?

    I have heard one Urdu announcer on the radio saying- xyz ke maane (माने) kya hain?

    In Hindi, another similar word is <maayne>
    Eg. Yeh kayee maay-no.n mei.n k peecheeda hai.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    We usually say: ma'ne - shorter 'e', but also ma'nee! We don't say 'maayne' as it reminds us of the 'mayna' ( مینا ) bird! Lovely song!
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Salaam to all,

    This word, View attachment 5940 is according to me a very much used one throughout the Hindi / Urdu speaking word ...

    I have however heard it pronounced in many different ways : ma'naa, ma'ne (even in singular) and ma'nii,even as ma'enaa, ma'ene, ma'enii (This last one by punjabi native speakers)

    My question : what is according to you the standard pronounciation in

    1.Urdu =
    2. Hindi =
    3. Punjabi =

    First, a little about the way the word is written in Urdu. You will notice that معنى , like ليلى does not end with a normal alif but with a ye. This ye is called alif maqsuurah and often a small dagger like vertical alif is placed above the ye. The words should be pronounced as ma3naa and Lailaa. However, they are also pronounced as "ma3nii" and (believe it or not) Lailii.

    nah hu'ii gar mire marne se tasallii nah sahii
    imtiHaan aur bhii baaqii ho to yih bhii sahii

    nafas-i-Qais kih hai chashm-o-charaaGh-i-saHraa
    gar nahiiN sham3-i-siyah-Khaanah-i-Lailii nah sahii

    nah sitaa'ish kii tamannaa nah sile kii parvaa
    gar nahiiN hai mire ash'aar meN ma3nii nah sahii

    Now there are two possible reasons for the -ii pronunciation. Take your pick!
    :)

    1) Because an alif is not always written above the ye, it is possible that the word began to be pronounced with a yaa-i-ma'ruuf.

    2) In poetry, there is a concept called "imaalah" (inclination). This allows -aa ending words to rhyme with -ii ending words. There is another Ghazal of Ghalib's where the rhyme scheme is tasallii, ma3nii, taqvii and even 3iisii (for Hazrat 3iisaa 3alaih_issalaam)! Here is an example from Mirza's Shauq's masnavii entitled "zahr-i-3ishq".

    buu-i-Yuusuf tamaam phailii hai
    ab nah vuh Qais hai nah Lailii hai!


    http://groups.google.com/group/alt....b19f6bb54ef?lnk=gst&q=lailii#d04d7b19f6bb54ef

    The words ma3ne/ma3nii can be used in the singular sense.

    "Nostalgia" ke Urdu meN ma3ne/ma3nii kyaa haiN?

    What does "Nostalgia" mean in Urdu?/What meaning does "Nostalgia" have in Urdu?

    But in the above quoted Ghalib shi'r, one can interpret "ma3nii" as "meaning" or "meanings".

    nah sitaa'ish kii tamannaa nah sile kii parvaa
    gar nahiiN hai mire ash'aar meN ma3nii nah sahii

    I ask neither for appreciation nor for any reward
    If my verses have no meaning, well, so be it!


    In Hindi, I believe the word is invariably "ma'ene". In Punjabi, "me'ne" is the nearest I can transcribe, where the ' is a bit of a jerk for the 3ain and the e is the vowel as in English jet.

    I hope this has been of some help, Cilquiestsuens SaaHib.


     
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    rahulbemba

    Senior Member
    English
    Salaam to all,

    This word, View attachment 5940 is according to me a very much used one throughout the Hindi / Urdu speaking word ...

    I have however heard it pronounced in many different ways : ma'naa, ma'ne (even in singular) and ma'nii,even as ma'enaa, ma'ene, ma'enii (This last one by punjabi native speakers)

    My question : what is according to you the standard pronounciation in

    1.Urdu =
    2. Hindi =
    3. Punjabi =

    In Hindi, it is spoken as "maayane" or "maayne" मायने.
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    I have some follow-up questions (interlaced with some personal observations) :)

    I think what I encounter most is /mɑːj.nɑː/ (= mayna, cf. post #9) acting like a standard aa-ending masculine noun. The singular oblique or direct plural is then /mɑːj.neː/ (= ma'ene =maayne, cf. post #1, #6, #11, #12), and there's the oblique plural /mɑːj.nõː/ (cf. posts #6 and #8). Of these declensions, I think the singular oblique / direct plural form /mɑːj.neː/ is used most often (in particular, the word is often used in the plural even where an idiomatic English translation would use a singular).

    But McGregor's entry for मायने is marked both "singular and plural." I was a bit surprised by the "singular" designation, but then I Googled, and sure enough, there are some occurrences of things like X का मायने (ie, with /mɑːj.neː/ used in the singular direct). This is slightly jarring for me, but it seems to exist.

    Question 1. Does anyone have thoughts about /mɑːj.neː/ as a singular noun in the direct case? This is a vague question. It could be personal acceptability judgments (ie, "jarring" or "not jarring") about things like X का मायने, or it could be observations about the distribution of this phenomenon, or whatever.

    ---

    Then there's /mɑːniː/ (= ma3nii = ma'nii, cf. #1 and #11). I encounter this as a masculine noun with reasonably frequency as well, as in the following:
    "Nostalgia" ke Urdu meN ma3ne/ma3nii kyaa haiN?
    But Platts's entry for معنی begins as follows:
    P معني maʻnī, s.f.
    And, sure enough, Google does turn up things like X की मानी / X کی معنی.

    Question 2. Does anyone have thoughts about /mɑːniː/ ~ ma3nii as a feminine noun? Again, this is a vague question. It could be personal acceptability judgments, or it could be observations about the distribution of this phenomenon, or whatever.

    ---

    Then there's the version that ends in an e-like sound without the mid-word glide. I do occasionally hear my grandfather say this, but only adverbially (meaning something like "that is to say"), so morphology doesn't apply. Also, his language use is decidedly Punjabi-influenced, and I don't really have a great ear for Punjabi, so it could very well be this that he's saying:
    In Punjabi, "me'ne" is the nearest I can transcribe, where the ' is a bit of a jerk for the 3ain and the e is the vowel as in English jet.

    Question 3. Does anyone have thoughts about this version ending in an e-like sound and without the mid-word glide used as a noun? In particular, is "me'ne" used as a noun in Punjabi? If so, what gender(s) is it used as? Or any other thoughts would be fun to read as well! :)
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you for the follow up questions, aevynn SaaHib. I shall speak from the Urdu perspective but will mention Hindi where necessary.

    Firstly, as you will no doubt know, the word معنیٰ ma3naa (meaning) is of Arabic origins and it has its plural as معانی ma3aanii (meanings), which is used in Urdu but mostly in literature and much less frequently in speech. The alif-i-maqsuuraa is not always written and this may be the reason why this word is also pronounced as ma3nii. I don't know why, but I always pronounce it as ma3nii.

    In speech the word معنیٰ ma3naa is a singular noun but it is used in the plural sense. [And the same goes for ma3nii]. Quoting from the late Shamsur Rahman Faruqi....

    "mujhe is lafz kaa ma3nii nahiiN ma3luum - Ghalat

    mujhe is lafz ke ma3ii nahiiN ma3luum - saHiiH

    ma3nii vahii Thiik hai jo Ghalib ne likhaa hai. Ghalat

    ma3nii vahii Thiik haiN jo Ghalib ne likhe haiN. saHiiH

    lekin ab ism-i-ishaarah "is" aur "us" ke saath ma3nii ko vaaHid bolnaa bihtar hai.

    yih baat is ma3nii meN Ghalat hai kih ... munaasib

    jo ma3nii aap bataa rahe haiN us se mujhe ixtilaaf hai...munaasib

    So, it appears there is flexibility in such a place as with a demonstrative pronoun. Continuing with the quote..

    "malHuuz rahe kih asl ke i3tibaar se is lafz meN alif-i-maqsuuraa hai [معنیٰ-ma3naa] lekin ab yih taqriib-an hameshah is tarH bolaa jaataa hai goyaa aaxirii Harf alif-i-maqsuurah nahiiN chhoTii ye ho [ma3nii]. dillii meN albattah ma3nii bar vazn-i-maanaa bolte haiN. ba3z log yaa-i-majhuul ke saath "ma3ne" bolte haiN. is talaffuz meN ko'ii sanad nahiiN. Hindi meN yahii lafz "maa'ine" ban gayaa hai. Hindi ke asar se ba3z Urdu bolne vaale bhii "maa'ine" bolne lage haiN. ise faur-an tark honaa chaahiye. ba3z log jam3 zaahir karne ke liye "ma3aanii" bolte haiN. yih Ghair zaruurii hai. jab tak kih ko'ii xaas baat nah zaahir karnii ho, "ma3aanii" ke isti3maal se muHtariz* rahnaa chaahiye. jaise Iqbal ke in shi3roN meN "ma3aanii" nihaayat xuubii se bartaa gayaa hai.

    kahte the kih pinhaaN hai tasavvuf meN sharii3at
    jis tarH ke alfaaz meN muzmir** hoN ma3aanii

    Hazrat ne mire ek shinaasaa*** se yih puuchhaa
    Iqbal, kih hai qumrii-i- shamshaad****-i-ma3aanii

    * abstain

    ** hidden

    *** acquaitence

    **** A قمري qumrī (rel. n. fr. qumr, pl. of aqmar, 'of a dully or dusky white colour,' rt. قمر), s.f. A turtle-dove; a ring-dove.
    P شمشاد shamshād, or shimshād, s.m. The box-tree, Buzus sempervirens; — any tall and upright tree; (met.) the graceful figure of a mistress.

    "x kaa maayne" and "x kii maanii" for me are wrong, as far as Urdu goes. In Hindi, they may be quite acceptable. I think this covers your questions 1 and 2. Regarding question 3, I have heard people say "ma'ne" (or something similar" to imply "I mean". But this is not Urdu usage. I am not aware of it being used as a feminine noun in Punjabi.
     
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    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    Thank you, @Qureshpor saaHab!

    The alif-i-maqsuuraa is not always written and this may be the reason why this word is also pronounced as ma3nii.

    Sounds like a plausible reason to me. And it seems like this "forgetting" of the alif-e-maqsuura on معنیٰ also seems to happen in Persian :) That being said, I personally haven't ever heard دعویٰ pronounced with a final -ii sound (though this also seems to exist in Persian).

    Quoting from the late Shamsur Rahman Faruqi....

    "mujhe is lafz kaa ma3nii nahiiN ma3luum - Ghalat

    mujhe is lafz ke ma3ii nahiiN ma3luum - saHiiH

    ma3nii vahii Thiik hai jo Ghalib ne likhaa hai. Ghalat

    ma3nii vahii Thiik haiN jo Ghalib ne likhe haiN. saHiiH

    This seems like a prescription which might have grown out of the same observation that I was trying to describe here:
    (in particular, the word is often used in the plural even where an idiomatic English translation would use a singular)
    But then the following part of Faruqi saaHab's prescription is quite interesting.

    lekin ab ism-i-ishaarah "is" aur "us" ke saath ma3nii ko vaaHid bolnaa bihtar hai.

    yih baat is ma3nii meN Ghalat hai kih ... munaasib

    jo ma3nii aap bataa rahe haiN us se mujhe ixtilaaf hai...munaasib

    I sort of suspect that this would be difficult to adhere to in speech, since it forces sentences into very particular grammatical structures, even if some might choose to adhere to it in writing. I might point out that in these examples, the first ma3nii is in the oblique while the second is in the direct case (and it's not until we get all the way to the matrix clause and the "us se" that it becomes clear that this is a singular usage).

    I wonder what what Faruqi saaHab would have thought about the plural oblique usage, "yih ka'ii ma3niyoN meN pechiidah hai" (a slight variant of @Illuminatus's sentence from #8).

    Regarding question 3, I have heard people say "ma'ne" (or something similar" to imply "I mean". But this is not Urdu usage. I am not aware of it being used as a feminine noun in Punjabi.

    Is it used as a masculine noun in Punjabi?

    Do you consider the adverbial "ma'ne" (implying "I mean") a Punjabi usage?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    "Sounds like a plausible reason to me. And it seems like this "forgetting" of the alif-e-maqsuura on معنیٰ also seems to happen in Persian :) That being said, I personally haven't ever heard دعویٰ pronounced with a final -ii sound (though this also seems to exist in Persian)."

    The -ii pronunication's origins are in Persian and from there, taken into Urdu.

    As for da3vii, see آبی دیکشنری : معنی کلمه دعوی به انگلیسی

    دیکشنری آنلاین آبادیس - Abadis Dictionary - معنی دعوی

    دعوی. [ دَع ْ ] (ع ، اِمص ، اِ) ممال از دَعْوی ̍. ادعا. (ناظم الاطباء). دعوی را غالباً مقارن با معنی می آرند. (یادداشت مرحوم دهخدا). دعوی مقابل معنی ، یعنی حقیقت و باطن آنچه ادعا شده است می آید :
    یکی مرد آمد [ زردشت ] به دین آوری
    به ایران به دعوی ّ پیغمبری.

    جست‌وجوی دعوی در فرهنگ فارسی عمید

    دعوی
    فرهنگ فارسی عمید

    (اسم مصدر) [عربی] da'vi ۱. ادعای علمی یا هنری.۲. ادعا کردن.۳. ادعا.۴. [قدیمی] خواستن.۵. (حقوق، فقه) دادخواهی.۶. نزاع.۷. [جمع: دعاوی] خواهانی.۸. [قدیمی] کسی را خواندن.



    "I wonder what what Faruqi saaHab would have thought about the plural oblique usage, "yih ka'ii ma3niyoN meN pechiidah hai" (a slight variant of @Illuminatus's sentence from #8)."

    He would have rejected it outright! The sentence does n't make much sense any way..

    یہ کئی معنیوں میں پیچیدہ ہے۔

    What does it mean?

    "Is it used as a masculine noun in Punjabi?"

    I would say yes. I although I instinctively use the word "matlab" in its place.

    "Do you consider the adverbial "ma'ne" (implying "I mean") a Punjabi usage?"

    I have n't heard Punjabis use it but Punjab is a large area. So, may be it is used in some areas.
     
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    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Salaam to all,

    This word, View attachment 5940 is according to me a very much used one throughout the Hindi / Urdu speaking word ...

    I have however heard it pronounced in many different ways : ma'naa, ma'ne (even in singular) and ma'nii,even as ma'enaa, ma'ene, ma'enii (This last one by punjabi native speakers)

    My question : what is according to you the standard pronounciation in

    1.Urdu =
    2. Hindi =
    3. Punjabi =

    I have no idea what is considered standard, but I think, what I have mostly heard in Hindi is two different pronunciations in two different usages:
    1) "apple maane seb"
    2) "mere liye iskaa koii maaynaa nahiiN hai" or "mere liye yeh koii maaynaa nahiiN rakhtaa."

    "Do you consider the adverbial "ma'ne" (implying "I mean") a Punjabi usage?"

    I have n't heard Punjabis use it but Punjab is a large area. So, may be it is used in some areas.

    To me that is quintessentially Bengali. I had to consciously drill myself to stop saying maane while speaking Hindi or English. 🙃 It's as ubiquitous in Bengali as English "you know".
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    To me that is quintessentially Bengali. I had to consciously drill myself to stop saying maane while speaking Hindi or English. 🙃 It's as ubiquitous in Bengali as English "you know".

    Also Hindi. Though I use "matlab," some of my Hindi-native acquaintances use "maane" there (also in the question "maane?", meaning "Meaning?" - i.e., "what are you meaning/implying/intending?").
     

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Also Hindi. Though I use "matlab," some of my Hindi-native acquaintances use "maane" there (also in the question "maane?", meaning "Meaning?" - i.e., "what are you meaning/implying/intending?").

    The Bengali adverbial usage of "maane" is probably more like Hindi "yaanii". I gather, matlab and maane can also be used this way in Hindi? The noun usage of "maane" is same in both languages but much more common in Bengali, as we don't have another common equivalent like Hindi "matlab". In any case, the Bengali adverbial "maane" is often bleached of its meaning, and becomes just a filler word, like many Hindi speakers' yaanii (even slurred into (y)aine, etc.). That's why it is quite difficult for Bengali-speakers to get rid of it even when speaking a different language.
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    The Bengali adverbial usage of "maane" is probably more like Hindi "yaanii". I gather, matlab and maane can also be used this way in Hindi?

    Yes.

    In any case, the Bengali adverbial "maane" is often bleached of its meaning, and becomes just a filler word, like many Hindi speakers' yaanii (even slurred into (y)aine, etc.).

    "maane" is not a filler word in Hindi; in fact, in my experience, even "yaanii" is not a filler word in Hindi. I am surprised that your experience with Hindi speakers has been different.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    "Do you consider the adverbial "ma'ne" (implying "I mean") a Punjabi usage?"

    I have n't heard Punjabis use it but Punjab is a large area. So, may be it is used in some areas.
    aevynn SaaHib, I sometimes listen to some Pakistani political talk shows on Youtube. One of them is called "View Point" in which a certain Zafar Hilaly participates with two other people. Mr. Hilaly was born in 1911 in Bangalore. He uses "ma'ne" implying "I mean". You may wish to listen to the odd programme and see what you make of it. He moved to Pakistan in 1947. So, one can safely assume that his style of speech would already have been crystalised by the time he moved to Pakistan at the age of 36. He is an x-diplomat.
     
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